Navigating Mentorship and Industry Transitions in Vacation Rentals with Sarah Bradford

Welcome to Alex and Annie, the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex and I'm Annie, and.

I'm Sarah.

Yay, we've got Sarah Bradford on the show today. We are so excited to have you, sarah, welcome. Thank, you.

It's fun to be on here with you too. We've been wanting to have you for such a long time, and it was so great to catch up with you at the recent women's conference, and Nashville is good to see you. I dare say there's not very many people that don't know who you are, but just in case there is, why don't you give us a little bit about your background and your history in vacation rental industry? Sure.

I'm sure there's plenty that aren't sure who I am. Let's see. I'm former owner of two vacation rental companies in Colorado in the ski towns of Winter Park and Steamboat. I used to own Winter Park lodging company and Steamboat lodging company with my husband and we sold that over a year and a half ago. Believe it or not, time is flying and we owned that for 15 years and then about seven years ago I started a podcast with Tim Cafferty of the Outer Banks of North Carolina, outer Banks Blue, and he also owns a company in Sandbridge, virginia, and we post a podcast like you guys do every. We do every other week. What do you do every week? We're every week. Yep, every week You're more dedicated. So I think we just released our 166th episode. So we're yeah, we have a lot of chatting out there that I've done for seven years, maybe going on eight years, and that's pretty much what I do now and then a little bit of consulting. I just want to emphasize a little bit. I'm kind of doing it for fun, on the side, since I have quite a bit of knowledge over the years.

Absolutely. I mean for anybody to be able to tap your knowledge of many years being in the business. What an incredible thing I mean, and it's got to be fun for you all. I would think also of now getting to take what you've learned and apply it in completely different markets, different situations. That's got to be a lot of fun.

It is. I think you forget, when you become an expert of something, that you're an expert of something Right.

Yeah.

It's a great point. Like we were just talking about snow skiing before we got on here and you were saying you know, you don't really snow ski, annie, and you forget that you're a great skier because you just do it every day, right, yeah. And you forget that you know a lot in vacation rentals because you screwed up every possible way there is and you have so much to share so that others don't make the same mistake and you can see things so much more clearly than you could 10 years ago. You know, I can just see where the problems are, and so I have to kind of hold back and not immediately say like, oh, stop doing that. No, don't do that, yeah, the benefit of hindsight is really great, uh-huh.

So I know you've been working with a really good friend of ours, valerie Genghis. She's talked about just you being that kind of a mentor to her and opening up that knowledge base. Did you and this has been a very big topic for my heart, this last year is kind of the mentoring and going back to your experience coming up in the business Did you have anybody that you were able to lean on? I mean, obviously you and your husband weren't it together, but did you have anybody within the industry of a female or male that was kind of there to guide you along through those mistakes, or were they all mistakes and lessons that you had to learn on your own?

Yeah Well, first of all, the reason I love working with Valerie and everybody I'm working with is because she, especially, is so open to feedback. So if you do work with a mentor and you're the mentee, you have to really not be defensive, because it's hard when you own a company to listen to someone saying nope, don't do that, do this. When you do this, why are you doing that? Let's analyze this. So that's one really important point for a mentee. I did have a mentor and I mentioned it actually on our podcast this week and that was Steve Trover. Oh wow, I love Steve I didn't mean to yeah, I didn't mean to like. We didn't intentionally say like. Will you be my mentor?

I'll be a mentee.

He was in charge of the VRMA and he was very well known in the industry and he had a very successful vacation rental company and I don't know. I think I pursued him like, come to Winter Park, I want you to see my business. And yeah, I have so many stories from the week that he visited us when we were just getting started I mean, we were probably four years old but we were not what we were today and he came and just did like a staff stay and then came in and analyzed every single thing, from the booking to the pre-arrival to the stay, to experiencing our maintenance people, to experiencing calling us our vehicles. I mean he analyzed it all and, fyi, he did it for free. I mean, I think I gave him free lodging but he taught us so many things Like we were really open to it. We were mortified by some of the things that happened, but because he did that, then we stayed in touch and I would throw an email to him every once in a while like what to do about this. But the other way I had a mentor is not so much we called them mentors, but I got to know a few other owners in the industry really closely and well, so that when we had a problem we could ask and they weren't competitors and he didn't have to be like. Dear Jane, I'm not sure you remember me from a conference, but I have a question. It would just be like text to Peter over in Keystone and I'd be like Peter, what about this? And he'd be like this here's your answer. And just really having that open communication is like a peer to peer mentor. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely, that really helped. Yeah, we talk about that a lot, that mentors it doesn't have to be and mentees a I'm the mentee, you're the mentor. That's one thing for sure that we believe in, but that it also needs to be. You have to have a varied group of people that are whether it's your, it's your kind of like your board of directors really, I mean it's your advisory group for yourself personally, professionally, for your business, and the more different opinions you can get where you can ask questions. Like you said, that you don't have to worry about being competitive. It's not maybe necessarily somebody in your market, but they're going to give you honest feedback and somebody that's just a little bit ahead of where you are. We just had Stacy St John on our podcast a few weeks ago and that was one point that she made that you don't have to be light years ahead of somebody to be a mentor. You'd just have to be a little bit further ahead than where they are right now and the knowledge that you have can be groundbreaking for them. I love that that was Steve for you early on and that he was just that giving to go out and do that for you, and it's so like Steve to do that so yeah, that's really cool, it was awesome, and he knows that.

I mean, I've told him many times how much he's helped us. You know, we have a famous story that he had the maintenance guy come for some reason to his place, and this is before I understood that maintenance is the face of your company, not you. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, this guy showed up and he goes hey man, I heard you're an f thing VIP. Oh, oh, wow, and he didn't abbreviate the word the way I just did. Oh, my God no. And Steve was like so that might not be something you want. No, he helped me with the company for years and years. She and I were like under the table embarrassed. We were like, yeah, my God, he said that to Steve Trover.

Like you would have been better or not better off not saying that he was a VIP. Like this guy does not matter, like totally normal oh yeah, he didn't last long with me, but anyway that was crazy.

Yeah, yeah, I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking about with the mentor mentee thing. It's also just that someone is willing to tell you what you don't want to hear. Yeah, yeah, the hard truths. Yeah, as owners of the company, you often get told everything you want to hear. Your employees just kind of agree with you. They go on with all your crazy ideas. Your owners don't really have a say, right, they don't get to tell you exactly what to do, your guests don't, so you have no one holding you accountable. So for someone to just say this doesn't look good for you, you know? Or why are you doing that? Or have you considered this? That's what you need in this industry. You need someone to tell you the truth.

But how great that you asked. I think that's one thing that I've learned is that people are often afraid to go ask somebody to be, even if it's just a few questions, but to be able to be available to somebody, and I think that that's what I love about vacation rentals, because I had been in hotels when I first started in the business. But vacation rentals is a pretty open industry. People are very giving and free with their time. But there are those occasions where people, just when they're new, they don't know who they need to know, they don't know who they need to ask and they're very intimidated by some figures in the business and they think that they just have to listen and they're not to ask questions. And so I think it's a very telling for our listeners and I think for anybody talking or thinking about needing a mentor, just going out there and asking somebody to do that for you is really important.

Yeah, and you might have to pay them. I mean, I'm charging for my consulting, but you also might just find an equal or someone that's out there that wants to. You share back and forth. I think still way too much in this industry people are not sharing their knowledge. There's a few of us that are out there just saying whatever we think about everything. And then I notice all these people at conferences. They just sit in the sessions and then we ask them to talk. They're kind of like, oh, I'm not qualified. It's like yes, you are, even if you have one vacation rental. You have ideas, otherwise, how do you even have a company or how do you even work at a company? So I want, always want, to encourage the younger people, or even the people that just have not spoken up, to try to do a session at a conference. You know, try to share your knowledge and sometimes you just have to bounce ideas off each other. It's not like we're brilliant, we just need to think about these. You know harder things to solve, yeah.

And I think one of my favorite parts of Darm actually was the round table discussion that you hosted and you had to ask me, kind of right before you went in. You're like come on in there, like if I need any help I'll ask you to jump in. I'm like, okay, and it was. It was great. It was the first one that I'd been to, but I really liked the format of that. It just felt like everybody kind of sitting around a dining room table exploring ideas and it wasn't presentation based but allow people to ask questions and then go a little bit deeper on a subject, and I think that was a great format and it's a great way for people to get more comfortable with speaking at these events and asking questions. You know, go to one of those smaller type of conversations. But you know, I think, looking back over the years and people say this to me all the time and I'm sure they do to you when your podcast came out like that was the first time that many people felt like they weren't alone, because if you didn't go to conferences you didn't know that there were other people out there going through all the same things. And really I mean podcasting and how information is shared has changed the industry, that now these ideas are more free flowing, but they're just coming in a different way, in a different manner. But I think a lot of that openness in our industry it started with you guys and your podcast, which is a really cool thing.

Oh, thank you. Heather Bayer was ahead of us for the record. But I can't tell you how many emails I've gotten from people just totally random, never heard their name, never heard their company, and they send me the most excited email saying I can't believe this. All this content's out there and I didn't know you've like helped me so much. I've binge listened to everything and now I you're helping my company or helping me, and that is a really great feeling, because until last year we didn't even take sponsors. Tim and I always joke we weren't making a dime with the podcast and really all the sponsor money is doing now is helps me rationalize going to a conference when I don't own a company anymore Right, I'm tax deductible and to get the podcast out there more and to get the sponsors names out there more. But we were never making money. And my dad, who's old schools, he's 90 years old, he worked for a steel company for 40 years he's like why are you telling all your secrets? Why would you do that? No one does that in business and Steve Trover once again taught me early on you can tell people all sorts of stuff, it's just they won't usually do it.

Yeah, and they won't do it the same way that you will.

Yeah. And also, what does it matter if Robin Craig and in Moving Mountains has for sure learned a lot of my secrets? He jokes about that all the time. He's doing well and my old company's doing well. There's plenty to go around and it's okay to share your ideas and it makes you have more influence and more people then share back with you. I mean, it has paid back in so many dividends to me doing the podcast. Yeah.

It's the abundant mindset.

Yeah, we've learned that and we've had people that have. I've run into people in conferences that are newer to the business. Same thing I found your podcast or somebody told me I needed to listen to you guys and I've learned so much and it's been really like, okay, I do have something that somebody wants to hear. It might be two people, but it's really satisfying. And Alex and I had a really incredible experience at the Women's Conference. There was a girl in the industry that had gone through a kind of a bad just a bad series of events right before and she was supposed to go to Durham. She was going to be on a panel and Alex reached out to her and talked to her and we've always kind of joked about not joked, but talked about we wanted to start some sort of foundation or something through Alex and Annie, because, again, we're not making any money either. We're just getting money to pay the bills, like, essentially, we have to pay for the stuff that we do. And so we thought, well, one day we want to get to a point where we can give back to the industry. So we've done some little things with advocacy and that sort of thing, but this girl wasn't going to be able to go to Durham. And so she was just devastated and it was very upsetting because it was like she had been very connected and this was her moment to be in front of her peers because she's in revenue management. And so Alex talked to her and then ultimately we ended up offering her Alex did offered her that we would pay for her to go to Durham or the Women's Conference, whichever she chose. So we ended up paying for her to go to the Women's Conference. Well then, at the Women's Conference, she had come to thank me, she had already talked to Alex, she thanked me and through that there was somebody else it was Lance and Elaine Stitcher actually had another available ticket for Durham, so they gave her their ticket. So she ended up getting to go to both conferences, kind of at the goodwill of the industry. But it's just the networking that has happened because of what we've been doing with the podcast and people just recognizing us and coming to us with questions, and I think that that, to me, is the most satisfying part of it is just the connections with the people that you make that you wouldn't have otherwise met. I mean, look at you and Tim, you're on opposite sides of the country almost, but you bridge the gap between the ski and the beach. You guys are bringing kind of those two worlds together and it's super fascinating. And how did you guys meet, by the way? Like, how did you guys decide to do your podcast? That's what I've always wondered.

Oh yeah, we explained it on the first episode of our podcast and then the audio was so bad because we didn't know what we were doing. We've since removed that episode.

Oh no, you should go back and re-record it and like, just put yourself in that mindset.

It was old school back then and the way we met was actually. Another recommendation I have, if anybody can pull it off, is that I used to be part of this group of eight vacation rental managers who met every six months in different locations. I think it's kind of like those retreats you guys have gone on, but it wasn't like someone was whining and dining us. We weren't on a ranch or anything. We were in some bad conference room in Chicago, but we would meet for two days straight every six months and Tim was part of that and I was in it, and then there were six or seven others. And the point is that you go in there and be really honest with each other, share what's happened the past six months. There were several times in there where I would tell something about my company and they'd be like, oh okay, you need to fire that person, and I was like, oh no, no, no, no, yep, yep, you do and we're going to follow up with you. So anyway yeah, it was like it was amazing.

Only you accountable.

Yes, and you could just really speak openly about what you're struggling with. Anyhow, tim was on that and we were doing our updates, like just kick off one of the meetings, and it got to me and I said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And also I'm just loving listening to podcasts because I was driving back and forth to Winter Park from Steamboat a lot to manage that company and I just listen to podcasts all the time. Nothing to do with vacation rentals. You know, when podcasts came out and it was exciting. And then it came around to Tim and he said and then he gave his whole thing and I didn't really know him well and he said Sarah, I just wrote down how about C to ski with Sarah and T, you and I do a podcast. And everyone laughed in the room and I laughed like it was a joke, it was a total joke. And then three weeks later I get this call from Tim and I'm like hello. He goes yeah, I wasn't kidding, we're going to do a podcast.

Okay, gosh, it's so funny.

It was crazy and I was like, how do you even do a podcast, like right, is that so? Yeah, we just I said, yes, I love teaching, I used to be a high school teacher long ago and I just love that outlet, get to get our voice out there and our thoughts. And we always say, and I'm sure you two agree, when you have to speak about a topic, you get really good at it, you become an expert. Like, if we have to talk about email marketing, I don't just hit recording. You know, I do some research. I ask some people like what, what do I want to tell people about email marketing? And so now my craft is more honed and it really helped our company.

Yeah, and, honestly, the your story is pretty identical to Annie and I's how we started that. It was like kind of seemed like a joke, Like let's start a podcast. And then we put it out there and everybody in the industry was like, yes, this is a great idea, when does it come out? And that really just put our feet to the fire of okay, we've committed to this, so now commit first, figure it out later. We've got to figure it out. But same thing we did have no idea what that even meant on how to start a podcast. And then we had gotten back from what was it? Vrma fall, I think, or international in San Antonio. I put my head down for a good three days and all of a sudden came back and Annie's like oh my God, we have a website, we have Buzzsprout, we have microphones, We've got headphones, We've got all these things and we just went all in on it. It's like, okay, let's just let's see where this goes. But you definitely don't necessarily always know at the beginning of something like this, and I think we still got in fairly early on. I mean, podcasting is still really in its infancy. It's growing rapidly and has grown substantially since you guys first started, but there's still so much more growth that will come from it. And I mean, I'm definitely I'm an audio gal. I always have podcasts on them the same way, but if I'm driving, if I'm folding laundry, I just put my phone on and I have it on speaker and that's how I consume information and entertainment. And I listen way more audio than I even watch TV these days. But funny how life has changed. What's your favorite?

podcast. Besides vacation rental, stuff like non-vacation rental I have.

I have a few. So I love I love Ed Milet's show, I love Heather Monahan's show, I love the playbook David Meltzer's show those are probably my top three that I listened to, that. Those are more like business motivation, entrepreneur type podcasts. I like them because the content that they talk about it's relevant, no matter what industry that you're in. And sometimes, I'll be honest, I mean I can only listen to vacation rental podcasts for so long. Sometimes you need a little break and honestly, that's that's why the format of our show we're not super tactical in our approach and we like to just tell the stories of the people and it wraps around vacation rentals. But I think if we were trying to be completely tactical the entire time, it would get a little boring for us. We've got to have a little bit more fun than that.

But well, that's what I think is so cool about all the vacation rental podcasts is they're very different approaches. Like, your approach is to interview someone here about their story, casually chat, learn some things. We do that once in a blue moon, but you know I'm all about the pullover moments and I am more pushing to do tactical with him. We make lists, like I want to get out this knowledge of how to approach different subjects and so that can be a different way. You listen right, it's a different reason you would listen to that.

Your tactical is entertaining. So I think there's a difference between yeah, it's definitely entertaining. I think there's a difference between tactical, that is just like it just doesn't have that entertainment value, right, like it could be great information. But I remember Stuart Butler had said to Andy and I early on you know you need to focus first on entertainment and then on the information, because people can go find information about vacation rentals anywhere on the interwebs, so what's going to make them come to you guys? And that for us that's just been being authentic and really that's the same thing for you guys too. Like I think everybody I love listening to your show because you guys have funny banter. You and Tim, you know, obviously have a great rapport together and that brings out, you know, the comedic side and whoever you're interviewing also. So you're tactical but you're fun tactical.

Well, I love to give Tim a hard time and he loves to give me a hard time. It's basically like I mean I got to say he's my older brother because I'm still going to be younger. I love to just say like I don't agree with you, right, you know, because the thing is there isn't one answer to a lot of the issues we deal with, right, and it's really good to debate them, because sometimes people you go to a conference and someone's like this is how you do it, well, not necessarily Right, and so people need to hear both sides. Do you leave spices or not? Yeah, vacation Ronald. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I could talk both sides of that. I think from a sanitary perspective I would say it's a no, but from a realistic perspective, that who wants to go on vacation and bring all their spices with them. It's much more convenient. You just don't know how long they've been in there. That's the problem.

I mean Tim honestly thinks that people open them and lick them and close them up for some day.

They might, I mean, you never know.

You never know. Well, you got bigger problems if you think that.

Right, right. Well, in the South you just don't do that because it's the humidity gets to it. Everybody always leaves there. So it's, I know. For us it's like. It's always like, well, you wouldn't have them out for any length of time because the humidity would kill them anyway. But then I don't know that. I want to know what people would do with the spices. Honestly, tim said way more than too much time to think about it. It's probably, it's probably not worth exploring.

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I'm sure. Let's see if he will. Yeah, he'll probably. You know, oh, it was only me, so he's going to play, cut it.

I was going to say well, open invitation, we're bringing him on the show next.

Okay, well, you can have you both together.

It's just even when we record and we're on Zoom, like we are now, you know, he is always has his name tag on, he has like showered and he has his suit coat on and he's in his office and he has many meetings and many things he's doing and I'm like and I have like my jammies below and I'm barely showered and I'm at home I would never wear a name tag. I honestly never would wear the logo of my company when we own. I don't know why, I just don't like that. Anyway, we're just so different and that, but then again we're so alike and our passion for the industry, so it's really been fun to come at it from different markets, different approaches and to show that there are multiple ways to do things.

I remember one time you guys were talking about what your staff could wear in the office and you had a heated debate about jeans and you were trying to explain to Tim that but jeans are one, they are expensive and they can be dressy. You wear them with like a nice shirt or a blazer and heels, and he was just not having it, do you?

know that that year he sent me his company photo. Right, they were all in white shirts and jeans.

Oh, I love that.

So he did listen to that and I was like I want it.

Yay, that's great. Well, let's, let's, sarah, we want to hear a little bit more about your decision to sell the business and, I guess, what that looked like leading into it and then now what that looks like on the other side. There's a lot of people, I think, going into this year that are in that boat of do I stay, do I go? Tell us about that decision and how you got to where you are now.

Yeah. So we managed about 180 homes, mostly large homes, higher end, some condos ski and ski out. It was quite the company. Two companies, we owned a laundry, just kind of giving the background so you can understand the stress level and we even before COVID. A couple of different things like little, not little things, but some events happened. Nothing that exciting for me to share, but just some different events happened, one after the other, and I just finally said to my husband I think I'm done Like I think I'm not. I'm loving the podcast, I love teaching and talking and dorking out on vacation runnels, but I'm losing the passion to get up every day and get excited about managing people, dealing with homeowners and waiting for the next ball to drop. You know what I mean. I know when I'm passionate and I know what I'm not, and I need to be passionate in what I do. I can't just do it without excitement. And so, as you guys know, I have twin 16 year olds now, and so at the time gosh, they were like 12 or 13. And we knew that vacation runnels companies were selling for good money and I just decided, like how's it gonna end? Right, like Truman show, how's this gonna end? I actually talked to my 12, 13 year old boys and said would you like us to hang on so that you could take this over, cause this is a way you could live in steamboat. It's really hard to live where I live Cause it's so expensive. And they adamantly said hell. No, they didn't say hell, but you know they said no, mama. No, I've seen what you've gone through. Unfortunately, I shared just too much at the dining room table and they're just like we don't want that. We don't want that path, and I get that. Even if they hadn't seen us go through hell, it was also. They want to have their own thing to do. I don't want to push a company on them. And so it was just really time for me to be more at home, be with the kids. Right when they didn't want me, right when they became teenagers, I showed up more and I knew we had built a really good brand and I had taken myself out of the business. I had had an incredible general manager. I knew that we could it could live without me, and so, before COVID is when we signed on with Jason Thomas from Raincatcher, who was our business broker, and started the process like rope behind the scenes. And then COVID hit and I remember Jason called me and he's like so you're clear, we're not going to sell your company. Now I'm like, oh yeah, I'm real clear, because we've refunded, you know, a million two I think in a month and we thought we were going bankrupt. We thought we probably wouldn't have a company. We it's just hard to imagine that now because COVID actually helped so much, but in a way. But for those two months we thought, oh my gosh, we never sold and now we're not going to have a company and it's all over, and it was so horrible. So then it all picked up again and we went through the process.

You sold it, and what was your intention after selling it, like getting through that? Like, did you know what you wanted to do after that?

Yeah, that was something really helpful about working with Jason. We got to be really close and in the very beginning he said what are your goals? We also worked with a financial advisor to understand how much money we did need to sell up for to be able to live the way we want to live. And the goal that I told him was I don't want to work, I don't want to have to work. I don't want to work in the vacation rental industry in terms of owning a company. I don't want to choose a buyer who would want me to stay. I want to be done. I like to be boss lady and if I am boss lady, I don't want to be there.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I think that's the hard thing for anybody in this situation of once you turn over the keys to somebody else, it's really hard to see them change your business. And even if they say that they're not going to change it, of course they're going to change some things. I just I can't imagine going from being the boss and owning things to then working for somebody. That's a really hard change in your life.

Yeah, that, and a lot of people sell them and the way the contract works. They have to hope, even if they're not working there, that the company does as well as they did the year before or they don't get a certain payout and I was like I don't want that either. I don't want to sell this company and then stress out all year with something I can't even control. So when we had to decide on the buyer, he brought me back to that goal. He brought Chris and I back to that goal, like remember, sarah and Chris? You said you wanted to be done and I was like, oh yeah, okay, then we're going to go with this one. But to answer your question, annie, everybody asks what do you want to do after? What are you going to do, do, do, do. And especially men ask me that question and my answer is I don't want to work. I'm having so much fun. Some days I have nothing on the calendar. I've never experienced that ever.

That must be nice.

Yeah, I mean I shared working right out of college I never didn't work and so I just as everybody knows, I love playing pickleball, I'm skiing, I'm spending time with my kids, my kids are in a huge ski race all this week and I was able to be there every single day all the awkward times it was, and there's just something beautiful about that. But I will say to those that are thinking, oh, but I think I would want to work, the word work, or what you want to do, has changed for me, like that used to mean oh, in a company, get up every day and have meetings and work, and like have pressure and have liability and have staff and all this stuff. Well, now that I'm consulting for a few folks, I guess you'd call that work, but it doesn't feel like work at all. It just feels like kind of a fun side project of mentoring with no pressure.

Do you know what I mean? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. My husband. Just in the past year he's now works for himself as freelance consultant, also in marketing, and he says the same thing all the time, that he's like I've got two to three different clients and I don't have to go into an office and be there from nine to five every day. I mean he gets to choose his hours and what he works on. It's a completely different lifestyle and I mean he's happier in making more money than he was before. So I think you're totally right that the definition of work not only for you has changed. I think the definition of work in general has changed for a lot of people and how they look at what they're able to be able to give in exchange for services. Right, I mean, that's what it is.

I mean the money. I don't need the money. I don't know how to say that nicely, but I just don't. I'm doing this for, like, extra shoe shopping money, which is great.

Nobody questioned me. I didn't question you by those shoes that I sent you. Yet Please tell me you did. I will, I will.

In fact, I have to remember to go back and get those. Yeah, I don't think that those who don't own a vacation rental company understand the immense pressure and when people are getting frustrated that people are selling their vacation rental company and it's like oh, they sold out, they sold to Vakasa. Blah, blah, blah. By the way, I did not sell to Vakasa for the record. Didn't even talk to them. Okay, if you listen to the podcast, you know how I feel about that. Yeah, but it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure to have 50 employees. It's a lot of pressure to go through this regulation, stuff that's happening and for all of a sudden the community's to hate you because you do short-term rentals and the liability of what could happen. People can die in our properties, not to be morbid, but and then these homeowners are high-powered people that own nice homes that pressure you like crazy. And then guests are just so needy and I mean we had lovely guests but we had a lot that they're constantly complaining. It's hard. We're not selling shoes, alex right, yeah, exactly. It's different and I guess what I'm saying is I don't want to discourage anyone, but there is someday when you don't own a company, know that there is this lovely life out there where you don't wake up every day and go. What's wrong today, you know?

you really loved your staff. I do know that and then we've gotten to meet many of them at conferences over the years. But how much did they come into play in that decision? I would imagine a lot.

Oh yeah, well, I was talking at the women's conference in a panel that we involved our staff in selling. My general manager was a part of it the whole time. He helped me walk through the whole process of whether we were gonna sell or not, cause at one point we went through the decision of maybe if we just gave all control to the general manager would I walk away and we still own it. I mean, we went through all the options and then my head accountant, melina she was part of it the whole time because she did all the accounting, all the due diligence, all that stuff. I didn't want to do all that and then I started telling more of my managers and then actually, when it came down to choosing a buyer, they were involved in helping us decide and they gave me the blessing Because I didn't want to sell it to someone they weren't excited about. So Al actually met the potential buyers before we said yes, both of them, all three of them actually. So that was just kind of an unique way, but I just wanted them to feel like I wasn't deserting them and leaving them high and dry. We were really really close. As anybody that went to Verma knows, we always dressed up crazy and-. Well.

I remember at the women's summit two years ago, I've got a great picture with you and your staff in the ski outfits because it was the 80s theme that night. Oh my gosh, I love that picture. You guys were so much fun, and so is Al still the GM.

Yeah, and everyone has actually stayed, every single person, that's real.

What a legacy to leave behind. And I recently got to meet Melina too at Darman Women's Summit. She was just so impressive to talk to.

Yes, she worked. I think she's at 10 years now, so she knows everything about vacation rental math, as they say, and I guess we're not saying it, so I'm just gonna say in case people were like well, who did she sell to? We chose what was called Sunset Management but is now called Continuum, and they owned four other vacation rental companies, a few down in the South, south Carolina and then Montana and so it was really great because they knew how to manage. They knew about the industry. It wasn't like someone just coming in and wanting to invest, but they had kept the brands and kept the people of all the companies they had purchased. So they put their money where their mouth was. Does that make sense?

That's gotta give you some sense of satisfaction that you can walk away with, not as a clear conscience that's not necessarily the right way but that you did the right thing by your people and that again to Alex's point you built a legacy for your guests and for your staff that is gonna stand, or at least is still standing, and it wasn't ripped apart or broken apart or sold again. I mean, I think that's what we've seen over and over again. Go back to your about the business being hard. That's one thing that Alex and I talk about. A lot is bringing education to the industry, because there's so many people out there that talk about getting in the business and everybody wants to get into it because it's where all the cool kids are, it's where all the money, the investment, is at this point. But it is hard. I was in it for a long time too, and I started a business with my husband and some people and we went through a lot. And to be able to trust people, to work with people seven days a week, 24 hours a day, like just being able to have each other back, that's a really hard thing to do and I think there's some people that are getting into this business with the wrong mindset. They're getting into it of like I'm gonna get a home, I'm gonna sell it, I'm gonna be able to rent it so many days of a year, I'm gonna get so much money on it. I'm gonna be like rolling in cash and you're driving a Bentley by the end of the year. We interviewed somebody who talked to us about like his bank account would be $500,000, but he always knew by December he'd be, he'd have no money in the bank, and I was like why would you even wanna operate in that space? Like just living on a razor's edge all the time? But that's what people think this business is. It's like this sexy, showbodey thing that you see on TikTok and it's just. It's not like that at all. It's not for the week. Yeah, definitely not.

Right, it's not sexy Unless you enjoy. If you think cleaning toilets is sexy, then yes, it's very sexy.

Yeah, exactly. I'm sure if you look that up on the internet, there is somebody that thinks, oh yeah.

Well, you know what?

there's so many parts of the business I think people don't understand. But in the past year I've noticed and I've always known this that a lot of operators newer operators are not comfortable with the financials. It sounds like a lot of money, top line, but once you pay your homeowners and then you pay your staff and you pay for this and you pay for that and that and that and that, what is your true profit? Oh and, by the way, then you get taxed on that. So how sexy is that? And when people don't have budgets and they don't pay attention to all their costs and their efficiency, this business could sink you.

It's true, yeah, and I think that's definitely something that we see a lot is that most companies do not have budgets. It's actually like maybe I don't know I'd say 10 to 20% of companies that really, truly have a budget, that they're looking at their P&Ls, they're looking at their marketing budget, they're looking at operations. Most they don't. And this business is a small margin business and you've got to really be watching every penny that goes in and out to be able to make it profitable, and it can be profitable, but it can quickly become unprofitable if you're not keeping your eyes where the money is. So let's transition a little bit to the future and just want to get your predictions about. Where do you see things going within the industry, I mean now that you've gotten to talk to through your consulting, using your expertise in some other areas but what are some things that you're seeing and what do you think people should be aware of as we head into 2024?

Well, one is budgets that we just talked about. I mean, I know it's so boring, but guys like if anybody's listening that doesn't have a budget right now, project out what your properties will make. Put it in QuickBooks. Project out all your fees and your income. Project out your expenses in a way that makes sense to you and track it every month and see how you're doing. It's not that hard, but I think some people are scared of it and just avoid it because it does take some focus. Do that, because otherwise I think a lot of smaller businesses are going to struggle. It's just been a fat time lately. Everyone's rolling in it. They're like I don't know how I'm doing, but I got money in the bank. We'll wait until 2008 hits, because I lived through that with Vacation Runnels, yeah, and there's a couple other things. I think that is like trends or what people are not paying attention to. Oh gosh, I told you, I think, Alex, that I want to make a shirt that says Airbnb is not a verb and it's not really a noun either, and stop it. Yeah, I just feel like this Gen X, Gen Y generation doesn't even know that there's professional companies out there and we have to watch that really closely and all they do is say they're staying in an Airbnb. I think it's a really it's an image problem. In Steamboat and Winter Park maybe place in Florida, we have become the villains. Short-term rental companies have become the villains. We got our car egged. We had people write on Facebook. You're the reason for all our problems. Basically, You're the devil. Oh my gosh you're awful.

Somebody wrote you're the devil.

So in these communities where real estate has just gone so high up right we have the highest real estate in Colorado in these ski towns, it's crazy and there's nowhere for the locals to live anymore. And so they've decided it's because short-term rentals are taking away housing, which is not true at all. But we have to really watch what's happening. Regulations are taking off In Colorado. For example, it's on the legislative floor to change property tax from residential to commercial. That means that it would go in Colorado from seven about 7% property tax to, I believe, 30.

Yeah 28, yeah 28, something along those lines.

And so when you look at a $2 million home, which is a very normal price at the lower price for Steamboat, if you do the math on that with how much that will increase their property tax, most of those people could decide not to rent, and that's just. And if that Colorado adopts it, other states might. I mean it's just, it's wild what's happening with regulations and it's really wild what's happening with that also broke me down. That was hard and to live in my community who thought we were doing something negative. And then I have a really Sarah-like one that I think everyone should be focusing on. And I say Sarah-like because it's very tactical to back to the podcast and I mean, guys, we've got to figure out the bedding, okay, because there's way too much unwashed top of bed.

Don't get me started. Yes, I'm there with you.

I remember during COVID at the time, saying to the company I was with that this is our opportunity, like we need to do something out of the gate that's going to show guests that like we're really taking sanitation seriously. And I think we looked into it but it never happened. But you're starting to see more of the traditional legacy companies that are adopting full white bedding not just the sheets, obviously, but the comforters and really it's got to make operations so much better. I mean having the beds for us and having to lug them out and everything else. I mean it's a huge pain when you got to clean them and, yeah, it's not sanitary and it makes the units look not as professional. I mean there's so many good benefits there. But yeah, I agree on that one for sure.

It will make you more money if you do it. We proved it. We rolled it out big time, right when COVID hit, and that was easy to convince the homeowners to go for it. I will encourage everyone not to do triple sheeting. You want to do for a warm or colder climate? You want to do a comforter with a like a sheet white sheet, white sheet duvet insert, because triple sheeting just comes apart. That works in a hotel environment when you're doing housekeeping every day and putting it back together. But in a vacation room where someone might say five or seven nights, the whole thing is just ripped apart. I was just talking with someone at the women's conference she's sending me samples but she was saying, yeah, triple sheeting doesn't work, stop with that, but just get these. It's almost like triple sheeting but they're sewn together. And then they. You don't want buttons or zippers because those break you, just tuck it in and yeah, you're right, it's so much more efficient. I was talking to Valerie and she's like, oh, the cleaners are going to be so annoyed they have to put that in there. No, it is so much faster than having to bring a stain comforter and then figure out how to get one back there. There's a way they get used to putting the duvet in there. It looks amazing, your photos look better and women especially will book properties that have Weston like looking bedding versus bears and embroidered trees on them, and I just think it hurts the vacation rental industry when we keep these. It makes people want to go to a hotel. So it's very technical, yeah. And the last one that I can think of is this is a depressing one. But it's the liability issue, not just safety, and you know Justin Ford's doing a great job with that. Safety's huge. I don't want to say just say you know 100% safety, prevent people from dying and getting hurt. But also, do you have liability against all the kind of lawsuits you could get? Are you covered with workman's comp? Do your staff know what their safety precautions are, for example, are you covered with homeowners and your liability and your contracts? Like really having an expert go through your whole company and saying are we as safe as we can be? You will always be able to get sued. Anyone can sue anyone but I think that it should be keeping people up at night if they haven't checked that recently.

Yeah, I 100% agree with that and I think in my day job we come across that a lot and have conversations about people that I've actually been shocked at the amount of people that are operating in this business that have limited liability or none. They were just dependent solely upon the homeowner's insurance and maybe they have insurance for their offices or their trucks that their staff drive, but outside of that they're just not covered and they're not thinking through like one lawsuit could devastate their entire family for the rest of their life. It's not just about their business, it's really bigger than that and we've had a lot of lawsuits in the pay and handle because there's people that fall off balconies. I know I worked for several companies and even the one that I started with friends is that we had people that jumped off balconies on purpose. You know, like committed suicide, and what you have to go through to like prove that they did that versus did they fall, did the balcony give way Like? It just opens up so many areas of concern for your business that you just didn't even think about. And I know what Justin's doing is great and I think that's a very good point is that people take it for granted that you just really need to cover all your bases, so you're not going to be open for even the slightest bit. Because you're right, people can sue for anything, but can they win? Not if you're covered, you know.

Covered and make sure you have a good attorney. So when it does happen which it will, I guarantee you you just need to be ready, have how you handle that. If you don't have an attorney lined up, you don't know how your process and you don't know how to grab all your documentation quickly, you're in trouble. I was just talking to somebody and this has come up a few times that a lot of newer vacation rental companies rely on OTAs for their bookings and they're not even getting those guests that book on OTAs to sign their own guest agreement. And they said to me well, I don't even know what Airbnb gives them. So that means you're letting a human being and their family into a home that you have a contract to be in charge of and you have no legal agreement with the human beings in there.

And if it's something where to happen, Airbnb is going to put that back on the manager.

Oh yeah, Hello hello Airbnb, Hello hello. Yeah, they are not going to.

Airbnb. Who Nobody's home?

Yeah, empty rental.

Yeah, honestly, I think that's. I totally agree. Those are all really great points that are not being talked about enough in the industry. I think we could have a whole show dedicated to that last one for sure. So thank you, thank you for bringing those up.

Talk about a dry topic, alex, though You're really going to bore people.

If you talk about it, we'll bring you and Tim and Justin in, so we kind of bring it sexy.

Yeah, exactly, we did talk to.

Justin about it and it was actually a really good episode. People liked it because he does give the dry, boring stuff, but he gives it in a way that it's like, look, this is his real life, we need to talk about it, you can't avoid it. Yeah, it's all on the delivery.

Right, I'm just going to say one quick last thing. Sure, there are a lot of certification managers out there that are finding a general manager. There's way too many managers out there that have been operating too long and doing everything themselves.

And by manager you mean the owner right. That's just doing everything.

Yeah, the fact I had Al my general manager, let me work. They say work on the business, done in the business. Go find a general manager so your business can operate without you. You have so much more freedom when you do that, so much more pleasure, why are you the one doing owner statements? Stop it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, sarah, we appreciate you coming on the show today and I think we're excited to have Tim on the show here soon, and maybe both of you guys back on a separate occasion. But in the meantime, if anybody wants to reach out to you, what's the best way to find you? Now? I like to go down.

Buddy's Run over to Heavenly.

Day. I think I should have asked that If you don't want to be bound, we won't tell anybody.

Our website for the podcast is sarahntcom, and so you can follow us on all the social media, but also our website. You can go straight to me and I'll get your email that way, perfect.

That works. If anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to alexandandipodcastcom and in the meantime we hope everybody had a wonderful Christmas and holidays and wonderful, safe, happy new year heading into that and we will see you next time.

Thank you for joining us, sarah, thank you so much to both of you for having me. Thank you for what you're doing in the industry. I feel like I see you everywhere and you are elevating what we do. So Merry Christmas, happy new year and thank you.

Thank you, we appreciate that. Thanks everybody, thank you.