Pour Decisions: What Owners Really Need When Stays Go Sideways, with Amanda Martins & Rachel Alday

Alex Husner 0:00

Not every stay goes as planned. Sometimes it's a small issue, and sometimes it's the kind of situation that turns a story into one you'll never forget. This is poor decisions when stays go sideways, presented by Safely, where we talk about the moments that no one puts in the highlight reel, but what actually went wrong and what operators can do to handle it better next time. Join Annie and I and the Safely team for cocktails and commiseration as we swap jaw-dropping tales of the good, the bad, and the downright outrageous. And trust me, there are plenty of them. Laugh, learn, and pick up a few instructor tips to help you handle and hopefully prevent future poor decisions. Come for the cocktails, stay for the stories. Welcome to Alex and Annie, the Real Women of Vacation Rentals. I'm Alex. And I'm Annie. And we are back today for episode three of our poor decisions series with Safely. And we have Amanda Martins, who's joined us for the last two back again. And also a special guest. We have Rachel Alday, who is the CEO of Abode Luxury Properties. So welcome, welcome back, and welcome to the show. And actually, Rachel, you've been on the show. So welcome back to both of you.

Annie Holcombe 1:09

Well, so we're excited today to have a conversation about owners and what owners really want. And I think that Rachel, you've done, I would say, a fair amount of research and a fair amount of talking to your owners. And you talk about this a lot and you talk about what really what owners say versus what they want and like really how to help them understand that what you're asking for is good. And so they may come in with an intention of no, I want the business to run this way, but you're like, this is my business. And if you want to be part of it, this is why we're doing the thing. So I think we're going to touch a little bit on that and how it relates to relationship with safely. So um, Alex, I know we've got some stuff kind of teed up, but let's get started with it and figure out how to go from here.

Alex Husner 1:53

Yeah, no, we we've got some cool ideas for how we're gonna play this episode, and it is gonna be a little bit of a role play episode. So knowing that when somebody says something, especially an owner, when they say something and you know that that's not really what they mean, we want to test, we want to test you guys. We're gonna give you a couple different scenarios, and we want each of you to tell maybe we swap back and forth, but to give us your take on what you think that really means. So, first one, when an owner says, Can you send me more detail? What does that mean?

What Owners Really Mean When They Ask for More Detail

Rachel Alday 2:25

I think to me, can you send me more detail could be taken on the surface, like they don't trust. And so I would say, if I'm seeing an email from a homeowner who's saying, Can you send me more detail? I'm probably like fighting myself a little to maybe feel defensive on like, oh, is it like what do you not trust about like what we've told you or what are the bigger issues of you not trusting? I feel like that would be my inclination that I would have to like fight a little bit. And then I think what I would do, which is what we've been doing actually recently, is we've tried to put together like some documents where we have broken out information, whether let's say they're asking for more detail on marketing or they're asking for more detail on pricing. We've tried to put together some really good documents within the team where we kind of gather that like depth of information, whether let's say it's marketing or pricing, and we have it ready to give to them as like an overarching explanation on how we handle that part of the business. And then, of course, like with some customization regarding their property. So I don't know if that's exactly what you guys were going for, but yeah, no, that makes perfect sense.

Alex Husner 3:29

And I remember in my uh time at Cossago, Steve used to always say, no surprise statements, right? Like the, you know, the benefit of having a good software that actually, you know, shows what has really happened and details work orders or other things happen in the property. Now the homeowner is knowing what's going on throughout the month. And at the end, it's not like, oh my God, there's so much I need to ask you about of what was this? What was that? And that applies on the insurance side too, Amanda, right? I mean, like if if a claim is filed and somebody's asking for more details, it's like, you know, they're they're they're concerned about it. So I mean, from your standpoint, how would you take that question?

Amanda Martins 4:06

Yeah, so it's it's not much different from from Rachel, but from a different vantage point, right? When they're asking for more details, again, it's a trust issue. And and sometimes, sometimes if it's specifically for insurance, partially trust, but also I'd say a little bit more angsty about, okay, am I gonna be in trouble, right? What is my part? What is my part in this? So maybe the trust and maybe not specifically not the trust in the process of the claims situation. So that's where I guess the process and having something like safely, of course, I'm gonna plug that in, um, is so important. But even if you're not using like uh safely, but having that consistent process, so your owners aren't necessarily having to question you ahead of time. You are gonna get owners that are always gonna ask that no matter what. But as the more you train them with that consistent process, the less you're gonna have with them.

Rachel Alday 5:00

We use Breezeway as uh like task management, but whatever tool someone uses, having a tool that like you can show all the tasks that started and closed, how long they took, who started each part of it. Like even when I think about insurance and stuff at the properties, it's been really helpful that so that when a homeowner maybe says, like, well, how often are you checking my house? Or how did this happen? And like, how come it happened when you weren't there? You know, and it's like, okay, because we're checking the house like once or twice a week, but like that's not a huge percentage of the time of the hours during that entire week. And so it's like, but when we can show like where we were, when, and what you know, tasks were started by who, when, and when they were finished and all of that, I think that can be really helpful too. Like when a homeowner is asking for more detail on how their house is being taken care of, and you have some tool that you can use to really show which people on your team were involved in taking care of their house, how many hours they spent at the house, like exactly what time they went there and what time they left. Um, to me, that can help too. And of course, like if someone says, if a homeowner were to say to me, How do I even know you're taking good care of my house? And like, how do I even know that you guys were there? My initial reaction is like definitely defensive. Like, even if I don't say it like in my head and thinking defensive, you know, trust me. Um, but I feel like knowing that I have like tools and way, like data that I can use to, you know, share with them and then present like the detail on what has been done in terms of taking care of their house and like what our attentiveness level is based on actual timing. Um, I feel like that helps. It's like sometimes just having that tool where you know you can track what you've been doing and then present that to a homeowner. And it's like I wouldn't necessarily show them the reporting of who was at their house when without being asked, because that would be like a binder of ridiculous excessive information. But like I know just knowing that when then posed with the question, I have the data that I could share. Um, it helps with the level of confidence. And I think having that confidence is what allows you to kind of put away the defensiveness and try to keep it like curious and open. Because if you don't have that data that you know you could share to back yourself up, you could start to feel like a lot more afraid and it'd be harder to not be defensive.

Annie Holcombe 7:16

Yeah, but I think at the end of the day, like if you're doing this, then you're building up confidence with that owner too. So then the next time when they say, Hey, you know, I need more detail, it's just a general question instead of I need more detail because I don't trust you. That's like they're not trying to fact find. They just like maybe they're just trying to button up some loose ends on their side of things. So um I think that's that's really valid. I wanted to ask, and I wanted to start with Amanda on this one is I and I think this is relevant uh really on the insurance side. And I'll say I talked to a property manager who had a guest that passed away in an owner's house, and the guest, the the owner of the house next door, told the owner about this when they were visiting in town. And the reason that the reason it wasn't disclosed was because there was HIPAA laws involved and all the things that they couldn't really disclose a lot of things. They just could say there was an incident, but there wasn't a lot that could be said. But the the you know, the uh the neighbor was a uh, I don't, I don't know, Gabby Gertie just had to be a know it all. Um so when an owner says, you know, why did my neighbor know about it before I did? What do you think they're actually asking for in that situation?

Why Documentation Matters After a Serious Incident

Amanda Martins 8:20

Um, what they're actually saying in that situation is what the heck, I need to know everything. If somebody dies in my home, you need to let me know. That's what they're doing. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's um it's wild to me. And I understand the HIPAA laws, but the way you can really circumvent that is to have a really good incident report process. So, so and it it doesn't have to be that fancy. You can you can have a, if you're old school, you can have a notebook if you want to, right? But um, but make sure as soon as something happens in your home, you start gathering every single detail and putting that down. The HIPAA laws, you know, of course, they don't necessarily need to expose the guest details, but you know, they can say, you know, a guest passed away in your home and here are all of the facts. And then in a situation, I'm laughing because it's bad. Um, but in that situation, you want to you want to document everything. And if you have um, if you have a service like Safely, you want to contact them immediately just so that you can start having a formal documentation process to even just outside of what you have in case there was something that happened. Because the other question that they're asking is was it my fault? You know, did something like somebody passed away in my home? Was it because I forgot, you know, I didn't use the right contractor? What's happening? So that's that's another piece as well. Yeah.

Alex Husner 9:52

Rachel, what about you? Rachel.

Rachel Alday 9:55

Yeah. So I have had a wrongful death lawsuit. I have had um someone that died at a property, and it wasn't the guest actually. This story, you can look it up. It was, you know, obviously in the local news, but it was got a little bit of traction beyond that. But there was a window washer who was, you know, which this usually window washers in ski towns do not clean windows in the winter, but because they use hot water and so they could release uh ice dams from the roof. And this window washer was a wonderful person who had been in town for a really long time and like was really active in the church and a small town, so he was really active at Toastmasters, he was like a really well-known person for a bunch of different reasons of his own. He had decided to do some window cleaning in February because there had been a little bit of nice weather, and so he was trying to like get some work in a time when he would have been slower, and he actually uh ended up releasing a giant ice stamp from the roof of this house that had like a you know, roof like this, and so he was trapped under like a multi-ton giant chunk of ice and he passed away. Um, but there was a guest in the house at the time, and this is a house in Old Town Park City, so small house sort of close together, you know, like around Main Street, and so that happened and it was a really big deal, like the house isn't that big, and the person inside the house is very aware of what just happened, and plus there was um someone who was really hurt and then ended up dying, so there was a lot of bad sound anyway. So um it was horrible, right? Like a terrible scenario. And I know with that situation, like we were immediately reaching out to the homeowner because we knew there would be legal ramifications and there were that and they went on for years. And I think that's justifiable and makes sense. There's reasons for all of that. I would say, like, in my experience, when someone gets really hurt or someone at the one time died, I think we do like tend to just make sure that we're reaching out to a homeowner like immediately just to let them know that a situation has occurred, um, even if we can't be sharing information. Because usually in my experience, the um information regarding the victim or a person who's been hurt or whatever, it does get uh shared like through the insurance conversations that then happen. And so anyway, yeah, that's how that went down. And to me, like the best thing that we could have done in that moment, which we did, was just like keep everyone informed to the best of our ability of like what was happening, what the next developments were. And we ended up feeling like we were really working hand in hand with that homeowner on the whole process all the way along because we were both involved and we both obviously felt really terrible that something had happened, and then you know, it was a long process that we entered into together. And I think that's probably the best bet in a negative situation like that. Of course, we don't want anyone to be hurt and especially not to die while they're staying at a property. And so I think the best way you can show that uh to the guest, to the homeowner, to the insurance that's involved, you know, to everyone, is to really just like carry forward the way that you do business, which is hopefully that you're transparent and highly communicative and you kind of, you know, do your best to like uh, I don't know, keep the conversation open and keep everyone sharing information to the full extent that they're allowed to. And so in that situation, like it actually it was really hard to go through the lawsuit involved with that for years, but it did end up ending in the the most positive way that it could, right? Where the family was paid out from insurance and you know, the additional like responsibility fell where it was it should have fallen. And so I would say there's nothing positive really about someone passing away, especially like this wasn't the guest, but someone involved. But the best thing you can hope for, right, is that no one is like wrongfully considered liable and that the people that you know deserve to be paid out do get it. And so in that situation, um that all went in the best way that it could, considering it was a terrible situation.

Amanda Martins 13:45

Yeah. I want to share like share something with your, I guess, you know, with everybody here. What Rachel did is exactly what you're supposed to do. What you're supposed to do uh when something like that happens, you immediately start documenting. If you work with somebody like Safely, so I guess the advantage of working with you, you've got your general liability, you need that. Your homeowners need their their homeowner policies. What happens in a situation like this is the guest or whoever is involved is going to lawyer up, and then you you hit the nail on the head, Rachel. Then the attorneys are going to gather all the, are gonna gather all the insurance carriers, right? And then behind the scenes, the insurance carriers uh start working on it. The advantage of working with with Safely here is you immediately, as soon as you hear what happened, you immediately call us and you've already gathered the guest information. So that guest information is key and you've got you've started gathering facts. And then what we do is we um we'll actually reach out to the guest first, typically offer medPay. Um, but that med pay offer, um, sometimes it helps, it actually usually helps um I guess squash things from the beginning, but it doesn't always. But what it does, it's not just that, it also gets our our um professional adjusters will have a conversation with the guests and they'll gather more information as well. And then that just kind of helps it along the way. And then to your point, Rachel, these could come back, this could come back, you know, two years later. Right. So it's if you if you go ahead and gather it and you've got your evidence already early on, and this is extremely early on in the process with a service like us, things are more likely to turn out, I guess, more in your favor as the property manager, and then therefore your owners as well.

Rachel Alday 15:32

Yeah, no, it's it's like super interesting because I think at the time that this happened, it was a long time ago. I don't even think I was aware of options like safely. And I think it would have been monumentally more, I would have felt so much more supported and more like knowledgeable, you know, having someone on my side like that. Because we definitely we have our attorneys and stuff, but it's a really scary thing. Like as a business owner, when you work so hard to take care of everyone and then something bad happens to someone somehow related to what you're doing, it's like a it's a terrible feeling and it's frightening. And like I think as much support as you could have would be like amazingly helpful because it's just a really scary thing, right? All the way around.

Alex Husner 16:08

Yeah, and there's so many players involved here too, that it's like you know, an incident can very quickly become the liability and you know, your relationship with the guest, your relationship with the owner. I mean, like there's so much at risk there that it's like, you know, if you have somebody that's on your side that has been through this before and can document things and and knows the right steps to take so that you're protected, but you're also doing the right thing, you know, it makes sense. It definitely makes sense.

Rachel Alday 16:32

It's like I I feel like I have PTSD. There's like a, you know, there's that situation, there's been some other one where there was a fire at a house, there's been floods, there's been like some stuff that's happened over all these 18 years. And I feel like from each of those, I have like a memory of where I was when I got the news about whatever it was. And it's because it's just such an impactful moment in your life, right? As a business owner, you're just like, oh my gosh, is this the end of everything? Right? Like, who knows what's gonna happen? And so I could definitely imagine how positive and like beneficial it would be to have someone like on your side in those moments because it's a crazy

Why Consistency Builds Owner Trust

Rachel Alday 17:07

feeling, right?

Alex Husner 17:07

Yeah, yeah. Okay, all right. So we've got that one. Now let's see. Our next one is why was this handled differently last time when an owner says that? What do they really mean?

Rachel Alday 17:19

I feel like I take that as a trust issue again. Um, I feel like that's like that's like in, I mean, I go to way too much therapy, you guys, you probably know that, but um, I feel like it's like it feels like someone who's trying to infer mishandling of a situation, right? Like it's someone who's kind of being like condescending and being like, oh yeah, that's not how you did it last time. And so to me, like again, and maybe this is just me, like it would uh it would instigate initially a feeling of defensiveness. Um and then I think you know, I would be thinking in my head, like, okay, if this person is trying to me, that's a comment that would be, I would take it as someone meaning to make me feel uh defensive, right? And so I think in that situation, I would be thinking, okay, this person's uncomfortable, they're trying to like make me feel uncomfortable. And so how can I get to like the root of what they're really worried about? You know, to me that that kind of a comment would definitely spur me to ask more questions about like what's going on, where they're coming from. Um, because it's just it sounds like someone who's like angry and trying to like suck me into like a heated conversation. Um pin blame somewhere, find fault in something. Yeah, I don't know. So I don't know what you guys think.

Annie Holcombe 18:39

But yeah, and I also think like just because I've been working like what on Omer like avatars lately and just talking with people is it's almost like maybe because you if you haven't communicated to them, they're like, well, last time you did this, and so maybe related to like the way things are on Amanda, like you know, regulations change, rules change. So you do have to pivot and handle things. So it goes back to that communication piece, but I think you're right, Rachel. It's like initially it's like what what you don't trust me, but then okay, you have to get unpack it and go, what are they talking about? Is it something that is about something regulatory that would have actually changed since the last time we had a conversation? So, like Amanda, like what do you see from your perspective? Because I think insurance is a moving target. Like that's something that changes quite frequently, right?

Amanda Martins 19:22

Um, it can. It can. Um, it's a moving target that is heavily regulated.

Annie Holcombe 19:27

Yeah.

Amanda Martins 19:28

So so we are bound by our policy, our the our, you know, the terms in our policy. So we have to follow it. Um, if you're using, if if you're a real insurance, real meaning when I say real insurance, I mean um licensed insurance company. I'm not that's not a dig at other companies out there. It's more like when you have to follow regulations, you have to you're you're pretty strict with what you have to do. And so um, like with Safely, for example, we have we have our policy, and that's why we have an in-house claims team that has been with us for years and they're all licensed, real like they're all licensed professional adjusters. And so, and they know exactly how to be consistent and how to follow those rules. Back to that question. When somebody asks that question, the reason I think, Rachel, you feel defensive because it's not a question. It's a statement. Um, it is it's not a question at all. It's a statement. It's saying, you didn't do this last time. I want you to do what you did last time. And so that's really what they're saying here. And and with us as well, you know, sometimes the the regular the regulations do change and we have to pivot as well. And that's not always the easiest thing to follow. But yeah, I'd say, yes, insurance is a moving target, but it is heavily heavily regulated. And so we at least are bound by our terms. So it actually can it it doesn't change as often as you might think. It's more around the licensing, I'd say that changes than really the policy itself and the coverages. Yeah. At least it shouldn't change too much.

Alex Husner 21:05

And I and I think you hit the nail on the head. If if the way that you did it differently, they like it better. They're not going to be like, oh, this is so much better than how you did it last time. I mean, in most cases, they're gonna say something when you've done it differently and it's not to their liking. So ultimately what that leads back to is you know, owners want to understand that there is a process and that they want to know that you know, from that is consistency, that like they they're not in the area in most cases. They're trusting you to manage their asset, to handle the guests, to do all these things, and they want to know that their asset is in good hands, you know, and and that comes down really to processes and communication and understanding what is worth you know sharing with them versus some things that maybe they don't need to know. You know, and it's okay to make mistakes. You know, I think if you handled it differently this time and there was a reason for it, sometimes it could be warranted, but the more things that you have in place for the real Serious issues that would involve insurance and damage claims, the better.

Amanda Martins 22:05

If you do treat something a little differently, there needs to be a clear-cut reason why and documentation why you're doing that. So you need to have real evidence as to why you're changing things, or if you aren't needing to explain why it's different very clearly.

Alex Husner 22:20

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. This episode is brought to you by Safely. One of the realities of

Sponsor Spotlight: Safely

Alex Husner 22:26

running a short-term rental business is that things don't always go as planned. Whether it's accidental damage, guest-related issues, or the unexpected, these situations are part of the business. The challenge is figuring out how to handle them without adding more friction to your operations or your guest or owner experience. And for a lot of operators, that's where things can get messy. Safely is designed specifically for short-term rental operators, combining guest screening, protection coverage, and a streamlined claims process into one solution. Instead of relying on large security deposits or navigating complicated insurance workflows, Safely helps operators put a system in place that's both more efficient and easier to manage. And what we love about Safely is that they remove a lot of the back and forth that usually comes with these situations. When something does happen, you're not starting from scratch or trying to figure out what the next step is. There's already a process in place that helps you move forward without slowing everything down. For teams that are growing or even just looking to operate more professionally, having that layer of protection without disrupting the guest or owner experience can make a huge difference. If you want to learn more about how Safely works, click the link in the show notes or visit safely.com and be sure to mention that you heard of them on the Alex Nanny podcast. Okay, so now we're gonna pivot a little bit. And so we are going to share some poor decisions because that's what this series is all about. And what the poor decision is and what the better decision would have been. So the first poor decision is wait to see if the guest complains again. What would have been the better decision?

Rachel Alday 24:04

I mean, that is like come on,

Turning Guest Complaints Into Service Recovery

Rachel Alday 24:07

right?

Alex Husner 24:07

Like if I if someone on my team just asking for it, basically.

Rachel Alday 24:12

Like it, yeah. Like if I had like, you know, let's say I hear that something went down yesterday, there was some guest issue, and I'd be like, hey, somebody share with me like the messaging or whatever. And if it was like somebody's explaining to me what happened, and they said, Well, this got to here, but then I just waited to see if they were gonna complain again, I would be like, Oh, wow. Does anyone else think that's what we should do? Because if if we all think this, we're gonna need to do some more training. And if it's just like one person, then it's like, okay, that's fine. We can talk through like why that's not how we would do it. I mean, I would just say this. So I it's like goes against my personal nature to like wait. I'm very like impatient for sure, right? Like I patience, not for me. Me and Rob, my husband, we own our company together. We are like a yin and a yang fully. Like I talk all the time. I'm like a very quick answer, like I make snap decisions. And Rob talks less, he's much more patient. He would wait to make a decision. He definitely would not like ever clap back at anyone with like a quick, you know, that's just not his way. And so to me, like when there's an issue and someone's unhappy, I actually feel inherently I would never be able to wait for anything. Like I would always want to be like, oh my gosh, this is going wrong. Like we have to quickly act, you know. And and I do think there's a time and a place to be patient and to like wait longer to make decisions and especially to decide your actions. But so for me, like there, I don't know that there's ever been a time where I've like waited for someone to complain again. Literally, that just like not that would take so much strength from within me, because that's just not how I built. And so I would say the reason why you wouldn't want to wait till someone complains again. And again, some situations do require patience and would be handled better with a waiting. But I think a complaint is not that situation, right? Because if someone's complaining, they're already letting you know that they're unhappy about something. And, you know, in this concept where you think about like the right way to handle like your interactions with your customer or with your team is to really like be present and you know, all of that. I think the correct way to handle when someone has come is complaining is I I talk about this a lot lately, but it's like this recovery paradox, the service recovery paradox, right? Where it's like if we can reframe in our mind when someone has an issue, whether that's someone on the team or like, you know, a customer, a guest, a homeowner, and it's like these issues that come up, these are actually the opportunity that we have to like now create a better connection with that guest. Let's say it's a guest complaining, because like if a guest never complains, then you never really have a chance to like interact with them on a certain level that has like more importance where you could really build a connection. But if they have an issue, like it's actually your opportunity now. Sure, you have to go solve the issue, deal with the complaint. But now you have an opportunity to like go build a connection with them. This is your door you could walk through to like all of a sudden, you know, forge a connection that you might have not ever thought you could have with them. So to me, that's the reframing of like, oh, well, let's just wait. It's like, no, this is your opportunity. Like, this is not only sure, we got to solve the problem, and maybe solving the problem will end up like making the house better permanently, right? Like, I don't know, I've been using an example lately where somebody complained about a washer, like a washing machine or a dryer where when the cycle was over, like the alarm was too loud and the guests complained, like, hey, on the LG, you know, washer when the cycle was over, like ding ding ding, whatever that little thing is, that it it was too loud, right? So they wanted us to come over and lower the volume on that. I mean, it's valid. Um, and it's kind of like good, right? Because then we lowered it and now it's permanently lowered, and now no one else will be worried about that. But it's also this chance, like when we go over to solve that, to change the volume on the alarm on the washer, that now we also get a chance to like talk to that guest and to like get to know what they're doing tomorrow and what they're doing the next day. And like maybe we could recommend something, and whoever's there might have this chance to like build a connection with that guest. And when that guest is done with their stay, it might be that they had in their head the idea to complain about whatever the issue was. By the time they leave, they may be like, yeah, that washer was like super loud, but they came and fixed it and ended up like now. I have this guy, Blaine, that I know, you know, in Sun Valley. And I feel like I have a guy in Sun Valley, and now like next time I go there, I'm definitely gonna stay with that same company because I had this like amazing experience that really only came out of an issue. To me, it's like if there's a complaint, you now have a chance for recovery and connection. So don't wait.

Amanda Martins 28:38

Yeah, I have so much I could say on

When a Guest Complaint Becomes a Liability Issue

Amanda Martins 28:41

this topic. Um, so I'm gonna I'm gonna try to reel, I'm gonna try my best to reel myself in because I've got two sides of me, right? I've got my years of um customer facing, hospitality, customer service. It used to lead customer happiness at safely. So you are absolutely right. Like whenever if somebody complains or they have a horrible experience, it's this this trails to any industry, right? This is your your opportunity to have a guest for life, to have a customer for life. Maybe I'm a little crazy, but I used to love dealing with escalations because I always saw that as an opportunity to um turn a situation around and gain that trust even deeper than if they had just been neutral. Okay. So that's that side of me is that the Amanda's history with customer success, but putting my insurance uh nerd hat on. Let's talk a little bit about this thing called being on notice. Okay. As soon as a guest complains about something in the house or on your property that could pose as a potential hazard, or even if it's something teeny, you are now on notice. And what that means is now you know it would have actually almost been better if the guest had never told you about something in the house, and then you get sued later because it was just something unknown. But as soon as they tell you that you know, there's a nail sticking out in the uh on the porch deck or there's a patch of ice on the um on the deck or something like that, you you now know. So I have a more positive story that happened. So we actually had um have a customer who is really good at filing a claim with us as soon as there's a sniff of liability. And we don't mind, you know, you can file your claims with us all day. It doesn't mean that anything's gonna get paid out. It's just she know she understands that with liability, I'm gonna just like everything's coming to you and we're gonna document this. So there were these guests that complained about carbon monoxide, they smelled carbon monoxide, but I thought carbon monoxide was was it had no scent to it. So the story confuses me a little bit. But so the guests complained about carbon monoxide. Okay. The next day, as soon as we were open, they they actually started a claim with us because they the guests complained about it. But that night as well, as soon as the guests complained, they went, they sent somebody straight to the property and they had the they had the guests evacuate. They were standing on the front lawn. They also documented about how um the guests were laughing and they were, they were all they were happy and everything was fine. And then they went in and they fixed whatever they needed to fix. And then the guests went back in and then they stayed the rest of their the rest of their stay. So it was fine, right? So they immediately went in because as soon as they were all notice, they went in right in and fixed the issue. Okay. And they also documented everything. Two months later, the guest comes back wanting uh what was it, five million dollars in damages.

Alex Husner 31:48

Wow.

Amanda Martins 31:49

Million dollars for having to stand up aside in the cold or they came back. But we had all of this, all of this documentation and all of this proof. If something were wrong, like we would have paid whatever out we needed to pay, but there was no proof that anybody, anybody was hurt. They had documented it so well. They had they had went in as soon as they were on notice and fixed anything that could have that could have gone wrong. And there was nothing to pay off. So that's it's so important to do that right ahead, right away. Um, but also like to to to help prevent people from actually getting hurt, because that if that was really an issue, that could have been that could have turned out bad. Absolutely. So yeah, even if even if they're complaining about something that's petty, go ahead and deal with it.

Annie Holcombe 32:37

Yeah. So that actually goes nicely into the next thing is um your next poor decision is offering something informally without considering the ramifications or the liability exposure. And interestingly enough, there was somebody that posted um Steve Turk, who we know he has some properties down in Miami. He had a guest that sent in a picture of a brick that had gone through a window in this in the car and said, Hey, my car was vandalized. And, you know, and then the immediate reaction was like, Oh my gosh, we're so sorry. You know, they're in Miami. That potentially could have happened. But they had video proof from other homes in the area that had cameras and saw that these people were like drunk and they were throwing things and they threw a brick into the window, I guess. How do you coach people through that poor decision of offering something before really thinking it through?

Amanda Martins 33:24

Okay, so I take a step back here and um

How to Show Empathy Without Accepting Liability

Amanda Martins 33:28

I lean on empathize, don't admit guilt. So show empathy, not guilt. So as long as you can offer things to your guests, you can say, I'm so sorry that you can say, I'm so sorry that happened. You know, to you can even offer something like, I'm so sorry that happened, here's a free bottle, don't give them a bottle of wine. That's actually high risk. And I know that you do that and property managers do that, but it actually adds risk to your to your thing. So here's, you know, here's I don't know, a basket of chocolates. Um but I would evenly steer away from that if there's a potential liability involved. First, again, if you have, if you have somebody, if you use a service like Safely, reach out to them immediately and ask for advice. Um, we had a recent situation where I'm gonna keep the details vague intentionally. Did you have you guys seen Justin Ford's recent post about the deck that collapsed? So we actually had a similar situation happen recently. A guest was on the deck, the the deck collapsed. As soon as that happened, the incident was reported to us, but but the guest also started asking for things. So they started, they started, they started threatening and asking for things. And so we had our property manager take pause, work with us, and we created um some documentation for them and an offer, like a formal, we helped them write up a formal offer to the guest. And so far, and everything is still, I'm keeping everything very vague because we're this is still under investigation, but right now we have we have um we have witness statements and evidence and different things that we've been helping gather. Um, and then also back to this other question, they immediately went out and um repaired what was wrong with the deck as well. So all those things are kind of really important here. I know that I just got off track. Rachel, you were talking about how you could talk all day. I could talk all day too, but that's exactly because this is your passion, bro.

Annie Holcombe 35:27

Passion. Yeah.

Rachel Alday 35:28

No, I I mean, I feel like we've had that happen. We've had um issues at a property where we're worried about uh like how it's looks like this is going to be used as like some like whether it's something that like actually happened, like a deck breaking, or someone saying, like, um I broke my arm and I fell, and maybe they fell on the slopes, or maybe they fell at the house. And like, you know, and so we do usually reach out to attorneys to ask, like, okay, what how's here's what we've received, and like how should we respond? And it's similar to what you're saying for sure, you know, just a lot about like of course, like empathy and like not to not respond, but to be just careful to do anything that would imply, you know, guilt or or responsibility. And so I do find that really hard, right? Because I think when someone's experiencing experiencing something negative and in hospitality, you just want to do what you can to like take care of the person and make them happy. And so I think it can be really uh uncomfortable to try and respond, but like in a way where you can't, you know, you don't want to mistakenly accept guilt. I really do teach my team actually that I feel like um I feel like typical hotel training can often be like this kind of language where you're not ex like you're not acknowledging that you did anything wrong, even if it's small, even if it's like, oh, we got it to the room and there weren't enough towels. And then I feel like hotel training can kind of be like um not acknowledging that there aren't enough towels. Um and like, you know, and so I I try to be careful with my team because I don't want to train them that the priority is to not accept fault, because to me the priority is to make the person happy. But with that said, when there could be liability, like that does change everything. And um, and it does, it gets really tricky. So I think having an expert honestly has been my experience is like having an expert in whether you work for safely or you have an attorney or whatever, someone that's like versed in this, because it can you can be leery to say anything because you're scared to say the wrong thing that could come back to bite you. Um, but like we talked about earlier, you don't want to not respond. And so I think having resources that can help you understand what your options are and like the best potential way to respond, I think this is like the key in a situation like that.

Alex Husner 37:44

To that point, what have you learned over the years of

Why Reacting Too Quickly Can Make Things Worse

Alex Husner 37:47

like when you get these sometimes outrageous questions or emails from guests or owners to not just respond with the things immediately in your head? And I think every property manager listening out there has been through this, but are do you have any tips for how you've learned to handle that over the years?

Rachel Alday 38:05

I mean, I learned through making the mistakes, like most of what I've learned in this business is just by doing it wrong. Like, I'll be honest. Like, I would never imply and like you know, amazingness to the people that are new to the business and killing it and doing so good. Like, that's cool. That's not how my life went. Um, this did not go well just because like we're so great at this. And I think it's funny when people will say, like, oh, you know, positive things about a boat and sort of imply like, oh, because you know, we they really know what they're doing. It's like only because we did not know what we were doing, and we did it wrong so many times, like in every possible way we could not do it wrong. And we probably did it twice or three times, each of those bad ways. The things that I've learned are from actually, I am a person who will like top off, right? Like my nature for therapy and like messing up and learning from my mistakes would be if someone wrote me a really rude email, I might write back. I mean, to a homeowner or guest, like I have done it. I have you talk to the people in my team that have been here for a long time, like there's been a lot of screaming and yelling coming from my office. I am very like justice oriented, I want to protect my team. And so when people get mean, I can just start to get like turned into like a lion, you know, to protect people. And that's not helpful. And so um, yeah, what I've learned is that like, you know, adding fuel to a fire does not help put it out. Like, you know, becoming inflammatory just makes things crazier, right? Like, and I do think there are boundaries that need to be set. When you have a business, you do need to protect your team. Like there is a level to which like sometimes um a guest or a homeowner is too rude, they're too harmful, this is not helpful. But I think getting really loud with them doesn't solve it, right? So you can protect people, you can set boundaries um without having to like contribute to dramatic behavior. And so I would say like I still as a person have an uh my instantaneous natural response will be to think about jumping into the ring. Um, and then I've just learned to like understand, and it does come from making the wrong choice and having to clean up a mess that I probably wouldn't have needed to clean up if I hadn't also cleaned it worse. And so, yeah, so I've learned that like it's we're all gonna have our initial reaction and then we have to like also be thinking through, I don't know, for me, it's like as I'm a leader and I'm getting older, and it's like, I want to model better behavior for my team. I want to model better behavior for the homeowners that I work with, right? I want to be able to show to the guests and to everyone, like, sure, we can get mad about certain things that happen. It's like it's justified to be angry or frustrated or disappointed. And then we have to like find the best way forward. And a lot of the time that requires, like I've said a lot, is like really being present in the moment and like not allowing everything else around you to be like tempering how you react, to like not be thinking about your rebuttal, not be thinking about how you're gonna make sure people don't think it's your fault, but like being present with the person and like receiving whatever they're telling you with like an open mind, wanting to work towards a good resolution, especially one that would end with like a good connection between the two of you. And realistically, like if you want to build a connection with someone that you're working through an issue with, name calling and screaming is not going in the right direction. And so while sometimes I have been able to still maintain a relationship with someone that I had a really heated discussion with, it's way easier without the heated discussion. So yeah, it's hard because there's like nuances, right? Like you, I do think it's okay to stick up for your team and I do think it's okay to set boundaries if someone's being really rude. Like I yesterday I had a call with a guest where I was kind of like, hey, like you're not allowed to talk to people like that, and what you're saying is actually not okay. But now tell me why you're so upset about this. Like, what is the values violation you're experiencing or whatever? And how can I help you solve that? And how can we move forward?

Why You Need the Right Processes and Partners Before Something Goes Wrong

Rachel Alday 42:00

So some of this does take a lot of therapy and like working through our own issues, but um also I think it's like most anything, there's sort of a balance that has to be achieved. Because if you go too far to avoid conflict, you're just gonna come off as fake and inauthentic, also not helpful. So there's like the spectrum of like flying off the handle, being too like demure and like you know, emotionless, and it's like you gotta end up somewhere in the middle.

Alex Husner 42:27

At the end of the day, it's a balance of self-awareness, of experience, and then also knowing that like you have to have a process, you have to have documentation, and you have to have the right, you know, tools and and platforms and things behind you that you can use so that you're not just feeling like you have to come up with the right answer every time from scratch in your own head. And that's why we we love what Safely does, and we've learned so much about what you guys offer to clients through all these stories. And it's like, you know, it it takes uh there's so much stress in this business that it you guys take the stress off property managers' backs in a lot of cases, and I think that's what everybody's looking for these days because there's just more and more stress that can keep mounting up on you and more security bills, right?

Rachel Alday 43:16

I mean, who wants that? Right? I mean, it's like there's a monster lurking around every corner, right? It's like it, you know, like we have had houses that caught like a 16 million dollar house that was 18 months old that caught on fire while guests were slain. Like crazy things happen. Like I hate I I hate like having insurance discussions where the people that are working for the insurance company or the people selling it or whatever, where they become like really fear-mongering. Like, I hate that. Um, and I don't want to be like that, but I would say having been in this business for such a long time, like if anyone were to tell me, like, oh, we've never had any issue like that, I just don't worry about stuff like that. It's like to me, all I can think of is like, so that means the odds that something is gonna happen within your business now. Are like so high because if you haven't had it yet, like girl, it's gonna happen. And so to me, it's like this stuff does happen. Like it just does. It's just a lot of averages and like odds. Like something always is gonna happen, and it just depends how long you've been doing this. That you know, your odds are higher if you haven't already experienced something. And so to me, like understanding all these ways of dealing with things, and then understanding all of your options on like resources, like safely or whatever your different resources that you're looking at are, it's like knowing what tools you have like available to help you through the situations, knowing who your advocates are, whether that's like your insurance and then your attorneys and all of that stuff. Like it really can make a crazy terrible situation so much more manageable. Because I have experienced it where it starts out and I'm feeling so scared and desperate, and it takes months or years to, you know, feel calm. And I've also experienced it where we've had more information and more years under our belt, more tools and uh resources, and then something equally as bad could happen, but it feels totally different to like have yourself properly set up because you don't have to feel like you could lose everything, which is kind of how it feels when you're not prepared.

Annie Holcombe 45:11

Yeah. So I think that the common thread through all of these things is don't react first, kind of sit back with with the information and let it settle. I'm always one of those people that I like, I type out that email or that text and then I delete it. Like I see I do all I say the things that are in my head. Do you?

Rachel Alday 45:26

I yeah, I don't put the address who you're sending it to in there. Just write it without a without a to address so that in case you can't accidentally send it. This is my own.

Annie Holcombe 45:35

Yeah, that's what I worry about, right? I I started doing it where I like address it to myself so I could send it to myself. Because I have accidentally sent things before, but I think it's like the communication is key. The sitting with it before you actually jump and make a, you know, make a comment, make a decision, make a, you know, get involved in anything is important. Um, but don't hide behind, you know, don't hide from the issue, you know, address it head on or or at least acknowledge it head on as best you can, obviously within insurance reasons. But then having a partner like safely, having somebody who can say, like, okay, this is what you need to be considering. Because I think Rachel, in your point, you know, you go to your attorney, an attorney is going to give you all the like worst case scenarios and all the things you need to do, but safely can say, like, okay, well, this is what we need, and this is how you can think through it and kind of put those, like, I guess those um those protocols in place as SOPs that your that your staff needs. But I think more importantly from all these poor decisions is we know that therapy is good and that um sometimes you need a drink. And so the theme for this poor decision was we have a drink. And so um, Amanda, you are our drink, our mixologist for this series. So why don't you introduce the drink that we've got for today's episode?

Amanda Martins 46:45

Um, well, mine's a little watered down and mixologist. I was a former mixologist, right? So today we're doing um what's called the owner manual. So it's gonna be a twist on an old-fashioned. You'll see my my ice is nice, nice and melted at this point. So you're gonna do some bourbon. Um, I I actually sweetened mine with a little honey. I'm a big honey fan. Um, and then a little bit of bitter, a little bit of bitters, and you you stir it, you don't shake it. So it's the opposite of James Bond's. You're gonna stir it, pour it in preferably over a nice big ice rock, but I only have a little little sad ice in my freezer. And then you know what? You get a little orange rind, you take it like this, and you just do a little squeeze in your squeeze it to get that here. And then if you want to get really fancy, you can also um burn your thing. Don't burn your house down because that would be a port. Then you're just gonna pop it in here, pull a little thing over it, let it smoke, and then take it.

Alex Husner 47:43

Oh, how cool! That's a great way to do that. Oh my gosh. Well, it it is delicious. I've got a slightly modified version of just what I had at home to concoct it today. But uh, as per usual, you always come with the great drinks. So uh we're excited for Nashville and VRMA International this uh this fall and getting to see both of you ladies in person. And I'm sure we'll have plenty of plenty of stories and cocktails to catch up over. In the meantime, um, we will put the contact info for you, Amanda, in the show notes and also you, Rachel. But real quick, if there's any an easy way to reach out, what's your preferred method of contact?

Rachel Alday 48:23

Oh, I'm good on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn pretty easy these days, or you can always send me an email. My email is Rachel like old fashioned R A C H E L at about luxury rentals.com.

Amanda Martins 48:34

Link LinkedIn is great. Um, LinkedIn is great. Um, if you want to if you want to talk to our sales team, it's hello at safely.com. If you want to talk to me, it's amanda.martins at safely.com.

Alex Husner 48:45

Awesome. If anybody wants to get in touch with annie and I, you can go to alexandypodcast.com. Until the next round of poor decisions. Thanks for tuning in.