The Bossy Girl’s Guide to Thriving Through Self-Doubt with Michelle Marquis

Alex Husner  
Welcome to Alex and Annie: The Real Women of Vacation Rentals, I'm Alex and I'm Annie, and we are joined today by Michelle Marquis, who is the founder of the marquee effect and many, many other exciting things that we're going to talk about today, Michelle, it's so good to see you again.

Michelle Marquis  
Oh, thanks so great to see both you. Well, we're going to call you a squared well,

Annie Holcombe  
when we have Amber, heard all on, it's a it's a cube. So, so Michelle, this is super, super exciting. We're both super proud of you. Known you for a long time. I had the great pleasure of working for you a few years back, and I know that you are just a tremendous leader and a powerhouse in this industry, but I dare say, there might be some people that don't know a lot about you. So tell us a little bit about you, and then we're going to going to dig into the meat of our conversation, talking about your new book launch. Yeah.

Michelle Marquis  
Well, I say that I've been in the vacation rental industry longer than I want to admit, and that's actually pretty accurate. My oldest daughter is 32 Gosh, 32 so at 30 years in the vacation rental industry, the thing was, is that I didn't really know that I was in the vacation rental industry because I thought I was a hotelier and that we didn't own the product didn't really matter. I just ran it like a hotel, like sales, like I always knew what you should do in a hotel, and that means revenue management and distribution, way before I understood that it was supposed to be difficult to do those things, because I just didn't know any different. So, you know, that's kind of where my vacation rental industry started, long time ago. I've now been with several technology providers, and now I'm doing my own thing. Very exciting,

Alex Husner  
you know, very exciting. I know when I started my own fractional cmo strategy consulting business last year, I reached out to you and a few others had taken that leap, and you provided me with a lot of different insights and motivated me that it was the right decision, and I looking back on it was, but I've learned from you over the years, and it's always nice when you have somebody that's gone ahead of you to ahead of you to kind of help

Annie Holcombe  
answer some questions.

Alex Husner  
So the book that comes out, and we are, as this episode airs, we are at the vacation rental Women's Summit in Charleston, which has just been incredible. But as the book launches, you know this, there's got to just be a ton of excitement and not probably some nerves to in your mind of like, this is a this a big thing. This is the first time you're putting something out there to the world that will be out there forever. It's got to be an incredible

Michelle Marquis  
feeling. Yeah, you know, I say in the book that I'm a poster child to not having success behind me for not making it, for not being a woman leader, because of so many things that have gone on in my life, I just the poster child says, you know, I should be kind of a a mess up, possibly, you know, drinking too much and doing Maybe some illegal things. And, you know, my background says that everything stacked up against me, and it actually did the opposite to me. It made me work harder, it made me want more, it made me kind of toughen up. And I'll say that, because at the same time, anybody who knows me, who was it, used this. They said, I'm a marshmallow with barbed wire around me. Oh, exactly. It's like my mom mushy and Sweet on the outside. You're like, she's bristly, you know? But those are the things that made me, what I think is is a really good leader, and I'm trying to pay that forward to other women that are not as far along in their career, or, you know, like someone said, Oh, Michelle, you're a sage, Yes, you bet better than older than the rest of everybody age in the industry, because I've just been around to experience more.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, so with this book, I mean, obviously you've done a lot of things, and if it's if it's stacked against you, you've done a really good job not showing that it's stacked against you. But I think you've, you've used your learnings as lessons to like you said, you're paying it forward. You're sharing it with other people. But was there any one thing kind of along the way that you said, you know, we talk about aha moments on the show. What was your aha moment that you said, You know what? I really need to put this all down in writing and share it

Michelle Marquis  
 with everybody. So a little over two years ago, Amy high note, and oh my gosh, Andrew McConnell were talking about having someone from the company I worked at the time speaking at the Women's Conference. And you know, they just, they were talking about, it be me, and I'm like, I'd love to do that. That that would be so great. I would love to do that. And, you know, one of the things that Amy said to me was, you're going to need to take off your mask. And I was like, mask. I wear a mask. What's that really about? And you know, we'll get into more. You know, details of. What taking off the mask was. But as I prepared to do that session, I really started to think about, well, what do I think my mask is? What do others think my mask is? And when I did the session that I spoke at, you know, I guess it was about 18 months ago now, something like that. It was all around those things that I think of myself, bossy, difficult, emotional, but those are also things that other people thought about me. And so after I did the keynote session, I really stopped and I thought, You know what I should write? I should write this down. And then both my daughters said, Mom, not all women get a mom with like you a lot of women don't have a, you know, a strong, powerful mentor or somebody in their life that can tell them and lift them up and show them by example, which I did have in my mom as well. Good and the bad about my mom in the end, she really did anything she put her mind to, she just figured it out, which is, you know, kind of what I call it. And, you know, figuring it out to some people will automatically lead to feeling like you're an imposter. And the truth is, if you are stretching and going and growing every day, you will always be in that a little bit of posture imposter syndrome, because you're stretching and you're reaching, right? So if you're comfy in what you're doing and in your job, it probably means you're not growing. So, you know, like, I kind of started to look at things a little bit different, and then my daughters just pushed me to, you know, Mom, you need to write this down. You need to share it with other women. You know, I like, I didn't cure cancer. I didn't take a fortune 500 company public, you know what I mean? I didn't, you know, I don't sit at the head of, you know, some company that just went to an IPO. I'm an ordinary mom, leader, friend that took things that happened to me and turn them into some pretty positive ways I go about my life. And again, I'm hoping I can share some of those, those things with people who read my book.

Alex Husner  
No, that's great, and I totally understand what you're saying next. It's like you having imposter syndrome is an uncomfortable place to be in. And I think it's, maybe it's more about, as you said, that in my mind, it's like, it's almost more about, like, just learning to normalize that and know that that's not a bad thing, and to not draw anxiety from it. But you know, that's that's definitely not easy, you know. And every day in my new business, it's like there's always something, something new that I haven't done, that I was with one company for 13 years. And it's like, you know now every day is a new day. But, I mean, what sort of advice would you give, or do you give in the book of, how do you just own that imposter syndrome, knowing that it's a good thing, but push forward anyways and live out in that kind of gray area of, it's okay to not bigger or not know everything, not

Michelle Marquis  
know everything. Yeah, you know? Well, there's, there's a few different things there, you know, like you hear about meditating and mantras. I believe in that. But also, more importantly is like to try to remind yourself that you are that. And more, there's a lot of things you can do, and I'll give you a few examples. Ask your squad if you were going to describe me, how would you describe me? And you will be blown away at what people think of you, that the bad things in your mind is what you assume everybody else thinks too, and the truth is, the people you care about probably don't. And so like have that and remind yourself I actually have in my office a framed a bunch. It's a word cloud of all of these things that my team said about me. So it reminds me that on my worst day, I'm still pretty much a badass to the people that work with me and that know me. So you got to kind of remind yourself that you are that and more, and you guys, well, I was working on something the other day I'd never done before. Thank God for AI. I told it what I wanted to do, and because of the nuances of what I knew, and I added it, it turned into this beautiful document, but I knew that it could not have produced that if I didn't have the things up here, right? Yeah, so you gotta kind of remind yourself, and you know, think back to the last time you felt like an imposter. If imposter, if you journal write this down, the last time you felt like an imposter. Write down, why now this time, go back and look at that and then say, Huh, not only did I do that, I kicked ass on that. I am, I am, I can, I can do this. I can absolutely do this. So there's a couple of

Annie Holcombe  
things, yeah, I love that, and and Alex and I talk about all the time, like our first encounter with each other, and the perception that we had of that meeting, like when we tell we recount that story, it was so completely different from what I thought and what she thought. Yeah, but going from that into like that, that imposter syndrome, I think the one thing that that Alex and I both learned from the podcast was like, if you start to feel uncomfortable, you're in the right place, like that. You know that you're in the right place. If it starts to feel very uneasy, that's like, yes, that's imposter syndrome sneaking in. But it's also that note of telling you like you're going in the right direction. And I think, Alex, what you said was like normalizing it. It's like accepting that it's okay to feel that way, and that when you get through that feeling, it's going to be something great on the other end. And I'm currently in that space right now, just trying to figure that out. So I think that's a great lesson to learn. But I wanted to ask you so you decided you wanted to put all this down. You know, if you had to share, like, maybe three big takeaways that you wanted to, you wanted to impart in the book. What? What were they? Well, when

Michelle Marquis  
I think about the, you know, the three things, one is, there's like this, I imagine this circle, and that is, you know, like you've heard of fake it till you make it okay, and then people go, you can't fake it. Well, I've completely turned that on its head. And it's earn it while you learn it. So we're no longer, are we going to fake it? You're just going to earn it until you completely learn it. And that means you're going to just have to figure it out. So you're going to be almost like, you know, learning as you go and making corrections, right? And then, of course, that's going to get scary, so it's going to give you imposter syndrome, right? And then you're going to be like, okay, stretching. That's uncomfortable. And then that learns to what. That leads to earn it. While you learn it, it's like this crazy little tornado of going through these three thoughts and all of them being thoughts that before people would look at as you know you're faking it. You know you shouldn't be doing that if you don't know how to do it. But I look at every one of these things, are things that are building brought blocks to make you stronger and better at what you do. And you know, I I kind of connect this to things I learned in my youth. And, you know, I moved out when I was 17 years old, no financial help from anybody. I was still in high school, I still played soccer, I worked, I supported myself, and I just had to figure out, like any car insurance, how am I going to get around any car Oh, I got to pay rent. How am I going to go to school and pay rent? You know, nobody. I just had to go figure it out. And then, you know, which led to, like, I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but you know, and nobody gave me brownie points. Good job Michelle, you got the rent paid. Good job. Michelle, you paid your car payment on time. There was nobody like giving me feedback or telling me what to do, so I just constantly had to just figure it out. And imposter syndrome all the time, I didn't know what I was going to do. And, you know, I earned it well, I learned it that example from the time I was 17, all the way through the rest of my life, has been pretty consistent in going through those three things. And I think it's normal, and I think it's how you really can tell yourself that it's okay not to know it. And you know, if you are right now, if you're completely ready, you've probably outgrown the room you're in right now. So how do you stretch yourself so that that's one important thing. Another thing is, you know, I call it my support squad. And you know, your support squad comes and goes. You know, it's not always the same people. Now, there will be people that are part of your support squad that you maybe don't see every day, but you know, when you see them that they've got your back, and it's them that you should care most about, what they say and think, and if they, if they're really part of your squad, they're also going to tell you things that aren't always comfortable. You know, my, my best friend, she tells she gives it to me straight in the kindest way. I could never get mad at her because she is so sweet and how she delivers the information. And that's, that's part of my support squad. So then that, you know, the second point would be, who is part of your support squad? Like, can you name them? And would they name you? Because part of having a solid support squad is, you know, in Brene Brown's book, they tell it. They talk about the putting rocks in a in a bottle rocks, and that every time that you are in a relationship with somebody, you either put the rocks in there jar or they put them in yours. But when it comes time to taking out and needing to withdraw from that friendship, have you put enough in to withdraw? So when you name your support squad, will you say that I could go withdraw from them? And if you can't, they're probably not part of your support squad, or you need to be putting more time into their those relationships. So, you know, that's a important thing to me. Before we were rolling, we were talking about our roles. Generally speaking, when you're a woman leader, you're and you have kids, you're also the mom, and that means you take the lead. In taking care of your kids too, which I was lucky in my life. Part of the time I was the mom and I was leader, and then as my kids got a little bit older, my husband started taking the lead with raising the kids, and I started focusing more on my career. But since covid, things are starting to go back to the way things were at one time, which was, you went to work, you drove an hour to work, you're in the office and having a, you know, I believe having a balanced life doesn't exist. I believe a blended life is what exists. So that means that, you know, and I share in my book, that means that maybe one day it is three hours of work in the afternoon, but in the morning you've got to sick kids. You're running around them around to the doctor, but then the next day, you're working till seven o'clock at night, because you still got to get stuff done. So it it ebbs and flows with what works with your life, and you have an employer who wants the results, not the hours logged. And I have been super luck, lucky in that I've had employers that that trusted me and empowered me to leave at three o'clock for, I don't know this, probably eight weeks in the fall, three days a week, to coach soccer and also get my job done. I didn't take a half a day. Ppto offer two hours or anything. I just got my job job done. So that I call that a blended life rather than a balanced life, because I just don't think that's possible. There's a there's a few things,

Alex Husner  
yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Those are all really good points. And one thing I just wanted to touch on before we get too far off of it, but the support squad for sure. It's so important. And I read at one point the description of it was, it's like your personal board of directors, and that really hit a mark with me. Of like that. That's exactly right. Like they're they're looking, if you're asking for that type of feedback, and they are those good friends, like, I mean, they are going to, you know, try and give you an opinion from a different lens and how maybe you see things. And I think that is super important. I think one thing about our industry, especially as we have more events like the one that we're at right now, is that, you know, this is something that is very much supported within the industry and within the groups that we all run in and our community is that we're all, you know, very cognizant of how important that is. And, you know, we're all colleagues, but you know, many of us are very close friends at the end of the day too, and that makes doing business a heck of a lot more fun when you actually, you know, really want to be around people that you work with. But I don't think everybody has that, though. I think that's the hard part. You know, whether you're in our industry or not, there's plenty of people that listen to our show that aren't even in vacation rentals, and you know, they might be, you know, sitting here listening to this and thinking, well, that's great. The vacation rental crowd, they have these events, and they all get together, and they have so much fun and everything else. But what would your advice be to somebody that maybe doesn't have that like, community within what they do, of like, how do you find those friends that are that are going to be the types of friends that you're talking about in

Michelle Marquis  
that support squad? Yeah, that's really good. Well, when I was call it 20 years ago, you would hear about be around people that you want to be like, or you want to, you know, emulate. So maybe you start there in your own industry is like, Who out there do I see that I respect that, you know, they're giving good information I could learn something from and, you know, you could even make a list. And, you know, I do this in business, you know, anytime I'm heading into, like, a new area of business, I want to know, I put together a list of people that I want to get to know. Then I I literally put them on a board, is what I used to do. Now, I just throw it in my little notebook, because it's me here. I put me in the middle. I put the people on my my my board, and I'd put their name, you know, like, if I didn't know you, either one of you, I'd have Alex, and I'd have Annie, and I'd say on a one to five, how well do they know me, and how well do I know them? And then my goal would get each of those people to a five. Then, you know, you're systematically depositing into those relationships and into those banks. And you know, you guys, people, women specifically, are afraid to approach any of us. Believe it or not, they are. They're like, oh gosh, they're so busy. I see them on LinkedIn. They've got all these things going on. Up and say hello. So that means it's up to us to make sure, to make that extra effort. And especially, you know, as you know, I know all of us, because we've all been in bed in we've all been involved in mentoring. All want to do that. So try to, if you're a mentee, try to figure out who it is you want to get them, get into your support squad, and then and and, by the way, it doesn't just have to be. Professional. It could somebody that you've met that you go, wow, we really hit it off. And I could see us, you know, like getting along, put them in your squad, and then deposit into that bank as well. And then we need to remember that people would love to have five minutes with any one of us, so when we're at the woman's conference, make sure that we are being welcoming to everybody, you know, like women in general, are hard to approach, right? And women to women aren't always as kind as they could be. Like someone said, you know, are we a bucket of crabs where we're just trying to push down? Sometimes feels like that. And I have been at conferences where I felt like I was on the outside. So I really try to not I try to be in as inclusive as I possibly can. So those of us that are, you know, already established in our career and established leaders, we should be trying to do that. And then those that are that want to start making a list of the people that you want to emulate, and, you know, learn from them. I love

Annie Holcombe  
that I want to and actually, I'm glad you brought up the mentoring, because I think, you know, you've been a big champion of mentoring women, and I got involved with you at the last women's conference. We did a session on mentoring, and actually walked away with two mentees from that and they've stayed great friends and adore both of them, and have, like, just been so impressed by what they've done. And I think, you know, it's so important. And I've said always, I wish I'd had somebody when I was in my 20s. I had an I had a woman that I still think about this day, that she had every opportunity in the world to be a mentor to me, but instead of seeing me as someone that she could mold into, she saw me as a threat and pushed me down. And it's always stuck with me that, like, you know, we have an opportunity to to really lift each other up, because who else is going to do it? I mean, let's face it, we know that, you know, I don't want this to be the sound like man bashing, but we know, like a lot of times, men aren't going to do it. You know, they've got their own world that they're they're dealing with, and women are dealing with just different things. I mean, from raising children, trying to have it all, if that's even a thing, trying to find that work life balance, which I really like that what you know, the way you said it, that it's not a balance, it's, it's really, what did you What was the word you use, the blended. I love that, and because I think it's like a balance is, balance is all subjective, and blending is the reality of it all. But talk to us about a little bit about the mentoring. And, you know, I think we had a shared experience and that we just, we came up at a time when there just wasn't a lot of women in this side of the business. But what do you know? What do you think is the importance and what we could do more to encourage having more mentor opportunities out

Michelle Marquis  
there? Well, I will share that I had a mentor really early on. Her name was kata Yamamoto. And, you know, I think I was probably 24 so, you know, super young. I was managing people that were sometimes, you know, 50 years old in the group that I managed so like, and I, you know, I was rough around the edges. Nobody had given me a brownie point because I, you know, got myself to school and got myself up in the morning. You know, I just worked my butt off and so and my mom said to me, don't ever say anything to anybody about somebody behind the back. You wouldn't say to their face. I took that literal. So, like, blah, right? Blah. So the the owners of the company I worked for, they were Pam and Bob Grossman. They actually hired kata Yamamoto to mentor me, and that meant everything from, you know, like how you present information, how you talk to people, how you give feedback, how you lead. But it also was things like, how do you dress, how do you communicate, how do you show up in a meeting. How do you I mean, they even had her take me shopping. We were in Chicago, and they paid for a shopping trip for me to get, you know, all professional looking clothes so that when I was traveling for business, I was not wearing my Aloha dress and flip flops. But she had, you know, she had a significant influence on a lot of things that I do every day. Well, I think the first thing is, you know when, and I'm the same way someone will reach out to me, and I don't know them, I still, I don't think I've ever not taken a meeting with somebody and, you know, just listen to them ask what they're trying to do, and give them feedback or help. You know, I have not taken like I have one mentor right now, and I put a lot of pressure on her to come to every meeting with a result of something we talked about at the previous meeting. So that doesn't take any work for me, the mentee is doing all the work, right? Well, because in the end, you know, if I have to do a bunch of work and they're not doing the work, then I'm not going to find time for it, right? Yeah, it's good. With, you know? So, you know, I would say that, like right now, I think in the mentor group at the Women's Conference, we have 14 people signed up. I'm hoping we get closer to 25 because right now, it is the same old, not, no offense, it's all of us, but it's the same people that have, that have done mentorship before. So I would encourage even those women who have had a mentor, remember, there are people that you could also help. So, like, if you've had a mentor before, take a step up to be a mentee to somebody else that doesn't have as much experience. Would be one way to get involved and and then, you know, we'll, we'll keep the cycle. We'll keep raising leaders. We'll continue to raise women to be all they can be in leadership, helping people one at a time.

Alex Husner  
I love that. I love that. And I'm curious. I mean, you've had so many experiences in your career, and you've had a lot of you know, incredible, powerful roles in the industry. You know, I'm sure you don't go into details on on every single one of them, but, like, maybe just pick out, like, one story that you tell in the book about one of those roles that kind of speaks into this, the imposter syndrome that we were talking about a little bit earlier.

Michelle Marquis  
Oh, I have such a good one. It wasn't that long ago, and I was fired from a role, okay, like, fired kind of get fired. You don't mean don't get fired. I am, like, one of those employees that doesn't get fired. I work hard, and, you know, when it happened, I was like, like, the wind was knocked out of me. I'll say that. And so I, you know, it was in the morning I got kind of calmed down. I put a message on LinkedIn, very careful, without AI very carefully written about that I am a free agent, that sort of thing. And went to bed that night and didn't really sleep. As matter of fact, I got up and laid on the couch behind me because I was so I was like, This is what was going in my mind. Well, people think that I'm not good at what I do because they fire me. Fired unless you're unless you're not good at what you do. Am I anybody if I'm not, like, you know, part of a leader in this company, Will anybody respect me? You know, like all of those things just came tumbling into my mind. Well, look at the LinkedIn profile, and it had like 17,000 impressions. So you write the notes in there from people I you know, thank you. I'm not thank you notes, but flowers with notes, handwritten notes, other messages, Facebook, whatever it was, it was overwhelming over the next 72 hours, and what it told me was that I am really good at what I do, and the people I care about know that, and the people don't know or that are, you know, bearing false witnesses or saying stuff they don't know me,

Unknown Speaker  
yeah, and I don't care.

Michelle Marquis  
That was like, the thing I was like, it was almost like, a little bit of a like, wow, they don't care. I don't care what those people say. I care about what these people say. And that was like, I can't tell you how big that was for me, and such a turning point. And I think it's part of what gave me the courage of, like, I'm not going to go work for somebody else again myself, and I'm going to work in the areas that I'm really good at that. I love that clients individually will appreciate, because I'm bringing value, and I'm not just a number at some company.

Annie Holcombe  
Do you think I feel like I've gotten to this space, and I was writing a sub stack about it, about, you know, they tell you that age comes wisdom and and I don't, you know, and I believe that, but it also is like, is that just like, you just get to the point where, like, your give a shit meter just breaks, you know, you're just like, I'm not going to worry about the things that don't impact me, heart and soul. I'm going to worry about the things and the people that impact my heart and soul. Like it's just you get to a point where it doesn't matter, because I've been in the same place too, where you just you read some things and you see the negative, and that becomes the voice in your head. And it's like trying to see through that, to realize that that voice is one of an opposing of all these 1000s over here that are just so grateful, and, like you said, giving you flowers and saying the nice things and realizing and seeing for who you for who you are and who you're trying to be, but that one person, for whatever reason, is the noise in your head. And do you, do you think, I guess, going to the my original question, like, do you think it's an age thing, or do you think it's just like, it's like, with everything else, you just have to, like, accept it and become comfortable with that you're not. Willing to make everybody like you or pleased with what you do, or what do you think that

Michelle Marquis  
is. So I wish i i could say that you can get this at any age. Yeah, and, you know, without the life lessons, and you know what, if you're very centered, and I'm even going to say spiritual in some ways, you probably can get there quicker. Yeah, quicker, yeah. But I do think it is wisdom. And I've been listening to podcasts with Chip Conley, who's the keynote at Verma. And you know his his organization is called the modern elder Academy, and I was listening to a podcast about the different phases in life, and that the experience is what gives you wisdom. So it only just for me listening to it. It was on Saturday I was listening to the podcast. It told me that I couldn't have done this book sooner. I had to get this experience and all of these things in life to be able to know that these are the important things of what you can think about and change in your own life. Like saying, you know, like, I'm not enough. You know. Like, you know, I don't know about you guys, but I have been quietly saying I'm not enough for, you know, not enough to be loved, not enough to lead, not enough to be taken seriously, all of those things for so long. But the truth is, you know, I'm not only enough, I'm more than enough, but it takes time to really see that. And I wish I had, I wish I had come up with some of these and thought more about some of these things sooner in life, it would have been a lot easier.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I feel all of that right now. Definitely do.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, I think it's an important point, though. I mean, when you experience rejection in any part of your life, whether personal or professional, I mean, it can it feels like it's it's so internalized in you, and just feels terrible, but at the end of the day, and rejection, rejection is also redirection, that if something's not meant for you, then it's better to find out, and it's better to move on, because there's something else that's going to be better for you in the long run, whatever that may be. We had David Meltzer, who's a pretty well known entrepreneur speaking guru on our show last year, and he talks a lot about that concept and how, you know when things go wrong, it's you're really you're being protected and promoted. And I always think of that. I'm like, that's such a good way to just to reposition something in your minds. It's like, when something happens and it doesn't go as planned, it's like you immediately want to go to the negative side, but it's like you have to think about, okay, when I look back on this, there was, there was a reason, you know, and it's guiding you to a different direction, really.

Michelle Marquis  
Yeah, well, you know that for me, it's serendipity, right? Yeah? Like, okay, this was supposed to happen for a reason. Not sure why the reason is, but I'm gonna, like, move forward. But, you know, we get, we get 24 hour pity party, you know what I mean, you know, and I'm not talking big, like, you know, divorce, death, losing a job, but I just mean, in general, get a little bit of a pity party, feel crummy about it, and then go, Okay, what, what am I going to do? How am I going to look at this differently? And, um, you know, the stories and the things we tell ourselves are so ingrained in who we are, that takes a lot of self evaluation and thinking to get yourself out of those modes. And you know, I am, just say, north of 60. And you know, it's taken me this long to feel pretty good about myself. And you know, this book was part of that transition, too,

Alex Husner  
sure, yeah, yeah. I

Michelle Marquis  
started to go, oh, well, I see now why I kind of kind of head in that direction. I see that. And then why didn't I let up on what change was reading a great book that inspired me, you know, like the Four Agreements. Love The Four Agreements. Great book. Yeah, the four, the basic four, they're super easy, and they cover like 90% of the shit that goes through your head. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
personally, right. So it's like, I think about that book all the time, that if I'm upset about something that's happened and I'm like, the way that I'm interpreting this is probably so different than what somebody else sees it on the other side that it has nothing to do with me. You know, if they didn't write back to my email, it has nothing to do with me. It's hard to not, it's hard to not take things personally, right? We're all just, you know, use, used to humans. You have to to your point earlier about the mantras, like, sometimes, you know. Simple books or sayings or things like that really are impactful, because it's like when you start understanding that you remember it at the times that you need it the most.

Michelle Marquis  
Yeah, well, there's a saying that is, you know, everybody makes up without the full truth. Everybody makes up their own story, and it's always worse than the truth. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
true, true.

Unknown Speaker  
Going on. They're not returning your calls. They're mad at

Alex Husner  
you, right? Yeah, exactly.

Michelle Marquis  
Story. This is how like crazy I was at one point about this is anytime our boss had her door closed. And this was at a place that I was at for 12 years. You know, when I left, they threw me, they gave me a beautiful Tiffany bracelet. They were very sad to leave me, see me go. But anytime the general manager closed the office, I was like, she's talking about me. Yeah, there was another girl in the office, and I would go by her office, and I'd go, Yeah, that. Do it to each other, yeah? Because you you like, How ridiculous is that, that your mind would be. They're talking about me because the door is closed,

Annie Holcombe  
yeah? Like,

Alex Husner  
right, yeah, crazy. Everyone's worried about what's going on in their own lives, way more than we're worried or they're actually worried about anything that we think, that they're thinking about. At the end of the day,

Annie Holcombe  
I had somebody say to me, once, there was somebody that had, I had posted something on LinkedIn, and it hit a it hit somebody the wrong way, and the commentary that came back to me was, how telling is it if that person thought what you posted was about them when it wasn't, yes, you know? And I was like, Oh, wow, that's, I mean, that could be true for anything, right? You just allow it to get in your head, and that narrative starts spiraling out of control, you know? So it's 100%

Michelle Marquis  
just sounds like a Simon song, yeah,

Annie Holcombe  
yeah.

Alex Husner  
I think this post is about Yeah, exactly

Annie Holcombe  
yes, yes. And now we're singing on the show we've Hey, yeah. That's

Alex Husner  
not continue, not in our core strengths, I would say. But Now one other thing I want to make sure that we touched on, because I've heard you speak on this, and you and I have had conversations about it too, but I mean really just the whole genesis of the book of like, bossiness, right? And how when you have a strong voice and when you want to advocate for something in a boardroom or with a team, and in a lot of cases, especially if it is more men than women, but sometimes it can, doesn't matter gender related. What are some tips to get around that? Of like, trying to, you know, put that thought through. And if somebody comes back at you, saying that you're being bossy, or that's the feeling you're getting back from it, how? How do you deal with that? What's worked in your experience?

Michelle Marquis  
I do think there is a difference between how men and women deliver. So let's just like, let's just address that right off the bat, because I can't tell you many. How many times I've been in a room where I, you know, I say something and, you know, the man next to me says something very similar, but somehow I'm a bitch. Mm, hmm, you know, and it's the exact same conversation. So I have been in meetings where I've called it out flat out. I just called it out in the meeting. And you know, that's, that's I'm gonna say one of my gifts is candor with grace and, you know, and calling things out sometimes, but probably the best thing to do, you know, when, if you feel from somebody that they're not taking the feedback you're giving in a group situation like you mean it, have an off have an offside conversation, you know, one on one on one, and then call out the behavior really strongly, but one on one, like something like, I, you know, I had a situation very similar to, kind of what you're talking about right now. And I'll just tell the story. It was me and the CTO and a product manager. We're in a meeting, and we're talking about something that I think the technology needs to do. I've got, you know, if anybody knows me, I'm prepared. I've got all of my information behind me. I'm, you know, coming in it, you know, educated. And the CTO was just, he kind of went off. He was pretty much a jerk in the meeting. And then we left the meeting, of course, not getting anywhere. And I went to my office and I cried. I just cried. I was just like, How could He talk to me like that? Like, you can't behave like that to people. So I go into the owner of the company later, and I said, Why did you let him talk to me that way? And he goes, Well, what do you mean? And I said, he was. So aggressive. And you know, is that how we talk to each other? And he goes, Michelle, you just didn't seem like you needed any saving. To me, you held your own. Even though it rattled me, I held my own. So then the next day, I'm waiting in in our conference room, and the CTO comes in and sits down. He says, Do you mind if I shut the door? I'm like, Oh, okay. And he said, you know, yesterday, when we had that conversation, I got home last night, and I was thinking about it. And you know, when a man takes control and tells people exactly how it is, he's seen as a leader and as somebody to listen to and respected. And when a woman does, she's just looked looked at like a bitch, and he goes, and I apologize for my behavior yesterday.

Alex Husner  
Oh, wow. Well, that's really, that's impressive. That's what he said. I wasn't sure where I was gonna

Michelle Marquis  
go. Wow. Yeah, you know what I said to him. Thank you. Leave it alone. I didn't think you were strong and powerful yesterday. I just thought you were an asshole. Yeah,

Alex Husner  
I'm not gonna be too big of a compliment.

Michelle Marquis  
The truth is, we, from that point on, you know, from one leader to another, we had years of really good dialog between us that was respectful and candid and really good. But it took that kind of like me to step stick up for myself and to not be pushed around a little bit made a difference.

Alex Husner  
I so relate with that too, because I've been in scenarios where I feel like the whatever it is that I'm, you know, backing as a point, I'm in the moment, like doing well presenting it, but the fact that nobody is seeing that the way the other person is responding is the issue, and not, you know, trying to back me At the same time. Like, it's, it's been hurtful that, you know, I think they were probably thinking the same things of, like, no, the way you were explaining it. I mean, you seemed fine, and you, you know, you were right. I didn't need to step in and say anything. But it's like, sometimes, sometimes you do. I mean, like, if somebody else is the way that they're reacting, and you're the one that's being normal and calm and, I mean, confident in what you're saying. Like, sometimes it's good to, at least, you know, acknowledge that with your team and and make sure that they know that they do have your back and that behavior is not okay.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, yeah. How do you think, um, how do you think we get, as women, we get past that judgment of bossy versus bitchy, you know, like, so, you know, I think that you do run the risk of, you know, and I get it from the like, I'm, like, people will say, Well, you're, you're just so nice. I didn't want to, like, have that conversation, or I didn't, I didn't want to push on you to, like, get more like, you're just a nice person. And it's like, well, don't, don't, like, forsake or take the nice as like, that I'm not capable, you know. Or that that I can't you know. So I think there's all these different things that are thrust on us as women, of these expectations that, how do you? How do you? It's almost a mask somebody's forcing on us that's

Michelle Marquis  
super, super interesting, because that means people are reluctant to share things with you because they don't want to hurt your feelings, yeah, right. And for me, they're reluctant to share things because they're afraid of me. Yeah, what's most interesting in both those scenarios come from what you and I think, right? Because they're afraid of me. You think it's because, you know, they don't want to hurt your feelings, right? They, they're like, being more gentle with you. So probably, you know, it's maybe setting expectations with people you work with closely, like I've heard from people that I come across very, you know, like people don't want to hurt my feelings or afraid to kind of push me on something. Please know that I'm tell me, so maybe it's about setting expectations. I know that, because of my style, when I first start working with somebody, I tell them I have high expectations of you. I have high expectations of myself. We will agree, you know or not, agree and reset it, what we're going to do together, and then I'm going to expect you to deliver. So I tell them upfront what to expect me as a as a partner, you know. So maybe that's the same thing you can do with people as look, I, you know, I want to be pushed, so don't be afraid to tell me something bad news, or to tell me that I need to be doing something different, because if you do, we're not going to not going to get the best out of each other.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, that's right. Enneagram and the different personality tests that we've talked about, several of them on the show, where those really come into play, and were very helpful, because it's like, you know, you don't sometimes you don't necessarily think to tell somebody that when you first start working with them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. She's got it up on the screen right now, but that really gives you a nice roadmap of how you like to be dealt with, talk to how you react in situations that sometimes it's almost creepy when you read it, because you're like, how do they know so much after answering a few questions? But it's also like, it's a blueprint to hand to somebody and be like, This is me. Yeah.

Annie Holcombe  
We're both you guys. I'm a 933,

Unknown Speaker  
and nine. I'm an eight,

Annie Holcombe  
yeah, oh yeah, that's yeah, no, but I think it's, it's so, it's so telling for you to understand who you are and acknowledge it. And I know, like, for myself, I did a deep dive with Lenny. She did the deep dive with me, and, like, went through it and she and it was like, I read it, and it was like, oh my god, I'm a train wreck. Like, I'm just, like, I'm just a total trainer. But she explained all the things that were the good part of it so that the bad part of it didn't, like, overtake my mind. And so now, whenever I read the stuff, I'm like, Okay, I recognize that, and here's how I need to deal with it. So I think it's a good tool to have. And you know, maybe we always joke, like, maybe we should have it on our name tags, like, when we go places, like, nine people, like, I'm a hugger, I'm a number nine. Bring it on, you know? Yeah. Well, so Michelle, your, um, so your book is out, people are going to be able to order it. You're doing a book signing tomorrow at 230 so everybody come to are you doing it in the main ballroom? What? Where is it

Michelle Marquis  
going to be? No, I don't know. Um, it's the same place that Martha Beck is doing her book signing. So I'm assuming out in front of the ballroom, I'm not okay. And, you know, people can also order. If you go to marquee effect.com you can also order from there. It's just a link to Amazon. You can also just search. You know, it's funny, when we were thinking about the name for my book, I was thinking they said a bossy Girl's Guide is an A and I was like, bossy Girl's Guide,

Alex Husner  
yeah, yes, I love it.

Unknown Speaker  
I'm gonna own it.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I am the Bossy girl, yeah. So are you? Yeah, so, so, okay, you're gonna, you're do a book signing. You're gonna speak about it at the book signing, or just you're just going to be there to sign books. And okay, so everybody be there at 230 tomorrow. We'll make sure that we tell everybody tonight. So they're they are aware to bring their book or get their book, get it signed. Michelle will be there to impart any learnings from it that she can share that won't take away from reading the book. And then everybody will be in knows in the book, on the way home, Thursday night and Friday for sure.

Michelle Marquis  
In closing, I just want to make one more point, and that is, when you're a leader, leadership is done almost agile. Okay, so in when you're building a product, there's such thing as agile engineering, agile product management, and that is about, you know, like, release what's good, you know, and then make it better and better and better. That's what I think happens in leadership, is that you take little pieces and, you know, people that were part of my my leadership in my early 40s, they experienced one leader, right? But as you know, as I've gotten more experience, my leadership also changes, and I think that's true about everybody. And don't be too hard on yourself where you are today as a leader. Just look to make it agile and make it better and better. And I know for myself, I'm not done growing. You know, when I was listening to chips podcasts, I'm like, Oh, that's really good. I got to think about that, how I can take that into my next, you know, phase of my life. Think of leadership as an agile way to develop yourself,

Alex Husner  
yeah, and I think not just even from your own experiences, but just being a constant learner and just always listening to things, always reading things like your book. I mean, you can gain so much more from outside of the walls of what your own experiences. And I know that for Annie and I that's been been huge. So keep your eyes open. And I mean, we're all learning every day. Even you know, leaders that are into their 70s and 80s, I think would still agree with that, if they have that mindset,

Michelle Marquis  
great, great, awesome. Such a

Alex Husner  
pleasure having you on, Michelle, and we're so excited to be able to dive into the book I will be this is the first conference I'll be driving to in a very long time, so I won't be able to read it on the way home, but as soon as I get home, I'm definitely going to open

Michelle Marquis  
it up well, and I thank each of you for being part of my support squad.

Unknown Speaker  
Yeah, absolutely honored. Honor

Alex Husner  
your hours as well. I think we definitely agree that you are, you're you have a seat at our board of directors too. If anybody wants to reach out, should they go to the book website? Is that the best place?

Michelle Marquis  
Just go to marquee effect.com the only thing on there is the book. They can email me there. They can also. Order a book from there.

Alex Husner  
Great, awesome. Well, if anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to alexand Annie podcast.com and until next time, thanks, everybody. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai