It’s About DARM Time: Amy Hinote Sets the Stage for This Year’s DARM Conference

Alex Husner  
Welcome to Alex & Annie:, the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex, and I'm Annie, and we are joined today for I don't even know how many times this has been, but a lot, a lot, a lot of times with Amy, high note, who is the CEO of VRM Intel and the host of the upcoming DARM data and Revenue Management Conference. Amy, it's so great to see you again.

Amy Hinote  
It's good to see you guys. I can't wait to see you in person in a few days.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I can't believe that we're actually here already. Like, it's, it feels like you just started talking about it, I mean, just a few months ago, when I know that's not the case, but it's, it's, it's a, it's a labor of love for you. So we're really excited about it, and it's the last conference of the year. So I think everybody gets to blow off a little bit of steam and really enjoy kind of the the wrap up of the year with you. So I look forward to it.

Amy Hinote  
I'm excited about it. I i like the location, even though it's some people think it's hard to get to a relative, it's easy for us to get

Alex Husner  
Yeah, exactly.

Amy Hinote  
But I'm really excited about it. We have a really good group plan. But like you said, we've got the holiday party opening, and we're closing with fireworks. And, yeah, it's, um, it's definitely that end of the year industry holiday party that we all need.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, and the weather is supposed to be better this year than it was last year. Was freezing last year. I got up with people and walked one morning, and it was like 40 degrees and it was two and it was just terrible. So I think we've got 80, maybe a little bit of rain, but it's Florida, so it always does that. So should be, should be good all the

Amy Hinote  
way, last I saw is that 80 degrees, the pool's open.

Annie Holcombe  
So that works. That works Florida.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, that's right. Well, and I mean, the Panhandle has by far the most property management companies by density than any area in the country. So I know there's quite a few people that come that are from that area, but also a lot of people that I've seen on the list that are coming from, you know, quite far away. So this is the if you haven't been to DARM, this is the conference that everybody just looks forward to, whether it's at the end of the year. Sometimes you've had it back in, like August, but it's one of those conferences that the conversations are very high level, and it's really information that is just great for everybody to be able to network and understand and learn together with. But I'm curious, compared to past years, what are you most excited about, or maybe what could be different

Amy Hinote  
this year. There's a ton of AI this year. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing what the new products are from people and the battleground and see how much of that's changed on the tech landscape. I see what I'm really excited about this show. There's so much we have. Megan Greenwell is the last minute ad. I'm not sure if you saw that, but she used to be the editor in chief of dead spin, and is also an editor at Wired. And her company, dead spin, sold to private equity, and she ended up, in the course of this writing a book called Bad Company that talks about the effect of private equity, and, you know, the different types, and how some are more destructive than others to industries. And I think it's worth having that discussion about. I'm excited about that. Zach Cass was one of the first employees at open AI, and so having him in is quite that's a it's a good thing. He just did a big AI show with Tony Robbins, and it was he's been doing a lot lately. And then soul Rashidi our keynote for on Wednesday. She's just a star. She was in charge, she's she's been doing AI when it started with IBM in 2011 but she was also in charge of all data and analytics and automation at Royal Caribbean, there's so much that they do for on personalization cruises, and I just wanted to see what it would be like to have that conversation with her. We had Marie back, who is our Google AI guru, and she was at the Women's Summit too. And so there's just there a lot. I mean, every major tech company is there, and most of the CEOs, I mean, in fact, I think all the tech CEOs and then and a good crowd. So if you want to make changes to a roadmap, this is that show. So I think this is one of the places where managers can sit down with the people in charge of these tech companies and really have conversations and they listen. I mean this, this is definitely the show that influences roadmap going forward and partnerships and who works with who it's become. Quite a tech get together. It's fun to see later. This is our seventh one. So it's been fun to watch companies that didn't know each other before or didn't work engaged or weren't really plugged into the industry, be able to come to Durham and have those meetings and have those conversations in a more intimate way. I mean, Verma is great, but it's huge, you know, and it's very hard to just have this type of an intimate setting. Right? So I think it's going to be great. We had to set at the same location as it was last year. So that helps us out a ton in terms of being able to be comfortable with the location. Everybody knows where the rooms are. You know what? I mean, there's just most people know the lay of the land. And so that's always nice, too.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah. So I think the one thing that everybody looks forward to, and I know Alex's company boom is going to be part of it, is the battleground. And I think everybody that that has just become such a focal point of the conference, and kind of like you seen who said, just people changing their roadmaps and really understanding, but what I love is it's it's so collaborative, like everybody's excited to see what the other people are doing, but then there's a lot of questions that get asked, like in the other sessions or just out in the hallway, there's a lot of conversation that goes on about what tech is being developed. And I think with AI, I mean, there's just no telling where we're going to be by the end of the month, let alone, you know where we're we're at at the show. So how did you how did you go about? I guess I, you know, I never really understood how you started the battleground. Was that something that somebody came to you and said, or was this? Was that something that you said, I've got to do this, because I really feel like there's bigger conversations that could happen. Well, I

Amy Hinote  
used to go to focus, right? And, you know, they would do all their pitch competitions, and they're just fun to watch. I mean, outside, they provide so much accountability for the provider because, you know, they they have to put it out there in front of their competitors too. So it's like, there's no bullshit. There's nowhere to hide. You know, you're up there. You give your pitch, and then you get asked really hard questions by property managers and and then you have to get asked questions the rest of the show too. You know, it's totally transparent. And I love that, and I love that. It also gives you an idea of who's developing and who's kind of coasting like and it's been interesting to watch companies, as they move into, like, maintenance, instead of building, they start to drop out of the battleground, yeah, and so that's it. We always joke in the battleground again, then okay, maybe their roadmap isn't looking very strong either. But, um, yeah, I think it's going to be super interesting. There's a lot of new products being launched here. There are from people that I actually didn't expect. So I think it's going to be really interesting. We've had a lot of last minute requests to be in the battleground, and we just don't have that time. But kind of like, what, what you guys are doing, also, what Rebecca is doing with her tech, you know, stuff. I think, hopefully she can pick up some of this and, you know, show more of what these new products are going to be to the mass audience.

Alex Husner  
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a great way for everybody to just kind of get that high level of what's going on within that company, but also show what they're working on. And I have noticed in the past year, really, that a lot of property managers, when they come to talk to us at boom, they're asking specifically, like, Okay, this is all amazing. And like, what else is on the roadmap? And it's good to hear property managers become more technical, I guess that they're even asking that question, because years ago, I mean, they never even thought to ask. They probably look back and wish that they had, but that's, that's, that's really important understand the the DNA and the vision for the company of where this is going to go. And, you know, from the AI side, you know, to Annie's point, it's like, there's, there's, there's so much coming, you know. And any of these companies that are really based on AI that, you know, the roadmap is moving a lot faster, which is super exciting, that companies aren't having to say, Oh, we're putting out, you know, this one feature in q3 and I used to always say, like, three of what year? Because, you know, sometimes it comes, sometimes it comes,

Amy Hinote  
sometimes it does inspirational roadmaps,

Alex Husner  
exactly like we want to see, the real roadmap and like, you know, and to your point, I mean, hold vendors accountable. Because if somebody signs up at a show, because you tell them that in X amount of time that they're going to have this one feature like you know, that should be the case, but that doesn't always happen. I know, probably more times than not a dozen, and that has really left a sour taste in property managers minds for the technology.

Amy Hinote  
I mean, the property we have a session that Simon's moderating that puts property managers with tech CEOs that's future proofing your technology. And like, as you're making tech decisions, like, is this a tech system that I'm going to have for a while, you know, is it something that I'm going to have to reinvest in? You know, in one or two or three years? Is a really big question. But, you know, honestly, tech is moving so quickly right now, I'm not sure you know that that for me, I would tell people, if that's a concern, stay on what you've got, you know, for a little bit longer, because it's like everything's going to change. I mean, just across the board, including coding, like the whole development infrastructure of these technology companies is changing, and so that, obviously, you know, then you've got new people coming in that are not as familiar with the industry, but they know how to code and, you know, know how to build in this environment. And I. We're going to lose a little bit of brain trust in that, so things are just going to be up in the air for a minute. And yeah, so I think they're just thinking it's like, okay, how long does this system last me before I've got to find something new and train again?

Alex Husner  
Yeah, I love it. You know? What would be interesting? And I just think about this, because we just got back from Expo RV in Cancun, which was, it was amazing. It was a great show, and different levels of greatness, but it really engaged attendees that were there. I know their attendance was down compared to last year, but was still, you know, pretty good, probably about like 250 people, I'd say, but we met with one operator that is a very big operator on the west coast of Mexico, and they've been in business a long time. They're the leader in their market. They've built their own system, and it was just asking them questions about it. And I think they've built exactly what they've needed over the years. And it's like we know so many of those companies that have done that. I came from one of them, and it'd be interesting to do like a the, not the amateur, but like the in house. The in house built battleground to see, not that they're going out trying. I, you know, it's like, I'd love to, you know, not just see what all the the big names are doing, but to see, you know, like Jim DeVos, we just had him. He hasn't, his episode hasn't aired yet, but we recorded with him that he's in Andy's neck of the woods, and he built his own system that he had been working on over the years, and is now taking it to market. But you know, just really diving into the viability of that long term and understanding, you know, where, how do people make those decisions? I think you've had some sessions in the past of like, do I build my own or do I go on to a system? But it would be interesting as a battleground concept to get them up there and see what they've got.

Amy Hinote  
I totally agree. You've had Dennis. I think you've got an interview with him coming up too. He built a ton of his own stuff. Yeah. And I guess now it's franchising with that system, but I try to get him to sell it. I'll sell it for you like his owner. App is legit. You know what I mean? There's so many things in it that I agree that even if you if these guys could see what other people are doing, they could actually get together and collaborate and build a really cool system. But I think people build what they're passionate about, you know, when you build in house. So it's like, if you're a guest oriented, that's where you go. If you're owner oriented, if you're operations oriented, if marketing is your thing, you know, you start building around those things, but you're right, but then you miss out on the other so if you're an ops oriented person and you're doing this whole breezeway style system, you may be missing out on the Communications Portal that someone else built on their own. I agree, yeah, but I think the way that tech is moving is going to be super interesting to see what happens in our industry in particular. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing what's what people are building and how they're using AI versus or are they what they, you know, saying, Is it real AI? There's so much about agent AI at this show too, and I didn't even know what it was we're learning on the fly

Alex Husner  
over here. Yeah. I mean, ever everybody is, you know, very confusing, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got, I got

Annie Holcombe  
stuck in a, in an endless loop this morning with our bank, and it was just like, you know, and again, I get, it's a chat bot, I guess, but it's like, it tells you use our AI, and like, here's where you go. And I'm asking all the questions. And at the end of 10 minutes, it was like, Oh, you need to contact somebody.

Amy Hinote  
Oh my gosh, I know via email, I was only sweet geek. I went to a college football game Saturday, and I had a parking pass too, and they had sent me the tickets, but I didn't have the parking pass in the system. That's all I needed, right?

Alex Husner  
In theory, right?

Amy Hinote  
I mean, I kid you not. I went back and forth with this AI bot, until I literally started cussing it out.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, they're like, contact us. And I'm like, I'm contacting you. You're gonna have to contact somebody via email. I'm like, Okay, well, then what's the point of the chat? Like, it says live chat, live makes you think a human like,

Amy Hinote  
you know, animation? I mean, that's to me, that's not AI. I completely agree. Yeah.

Annie Holcombe  
So I think that, I think, and so, like, the I posted it on LinkedIn, and, like, it was conversation about, like, Well, is it really AI? Is it chat? Like, what is it? And I think there's just so many, there's people saying they have one thing when they really have another. And so it's going to be interesting to see, like, is there guardrails put up, is there going to be clear defining, you know, definitions that are out there that people understand, if they do, like the agentic stuff. I didn't know what that was either. I had to look it up. But it's was like another term that got thrown in there. So it is very confusing. So I think overall, I mean, just having this amount of content and having some really key speakers to talk to it, it will be helpful to kind of dispel the.

Amy Hinote  
Honestly, because we have so much of it at this show, I think by the end of it, we are all going to be so much more educated about where we're going with it. I mean, I especially where the industry is today. We'll find that out. We're going to find out definitely what's coming up in the next one to three years. And I think that will help us see what's being built, so we can see where those holes are, and how to, how to kind of influence those road maps to be more effective for the property management community. I mean, I think sometimes, the end, they build what they want to build too, right? And, you know, until they hear from customers, that's what they're doing. Well, I mean, boom. You know, they built a really great system, but once they started hearing from their customers about how they were using it, then they started adding things that were much, you know, that would be helpful for that, for those people. And I think everyone starts out that way. The other thing about the life cycle of the company too, it's like, I think it's really interesting when you start to see a company that matures, you know, the failure leaves, and that, you know, they go through this stage where the roadmap isn't quite as innovative as it has been in the past. It's almost reactive and not proactive. And I think we'll, we'll get a real clear view of who's in that stage of their company life cycle at this schedule.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, for sure, yeah. I'm thinking back, just not even in the AI era, but it's like, it's been years that we've been able to go on a website and there's a chat functionality, right? That it's a true chat bot. There's actually, really not a whole lot about it. That's even AI. And we were on a webinar for boom recently, and someone asked just a general question, like, what is the difference between a chat bot versus like, true AI that is powering agentic chat there, and the difference is one, I mean, with true agentic AI. I mean, the way that booms works, at least, is that it is referencing all the company policies that you have, all the property policies that you have, and you're able to train the agent to answer in a specific way. I mean, how they their tone, how they you know, how they know how to decipher between different questions, and how you can train the right answer versus the wrong answer or the better answer for it. But it also knows to understand the conversation to the point that, like, instead of Annie's example about the bank that it said, Well, you're gonna need to call us. It knows like when it is not certain about the answer, that's when it escalates it to a human to step in. And so that's where it's like, you don't even, you don't even know, between when you were talking to the AI versus when somebody steps in to start texting back with you, because it's seamless, you know? And it's like, that's, that's the new era that we're moving into that, you know, that's, that's going to be huge for companies both not, I mean on their own websites, for sure, but I mean for all parts of customer service, customer service bookings, like we've really got to up the game, I feel like on the not just the service side, but on the sales side of how guests are able to go on websites and be able to ask these questions, and, you know, not have reservation agents that aren't really great at typing and they're responding, it doesn't, you know, it's not on brand. That's always a problem that I talk to companies about, and that's why they don't want to have chat on their website. But it's like, you know, those days can be, can be gone with the right provider that can make it happen.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I'm interested. Just on that point, I've been using an AI tool called press master, and it's pretty fascinating, because you could go in and you, like, train your twin, you like, go through, like, I think I spent like, three hours with it on Friday, just like, answering questions and uploading stuff and going through some details. But it allows you to populate your brand and your brand voice and like, what you want it to be. So like to that, kind of to that point. But I wonder, you know, like, I think that'll solve some of that. But I have to wonder, kind of, to your point, Amy, like, about people, you know, where they are in their roadmap, and whether they're going to be reactive or proactive. And I almost think, like, we're going to be in a space for a while that it's going to be really hard to be proactive, because things are going to be changing so rapidly that you might think, oh, we need to go this direction, and something's going to pop up and it's like, it's on fire, and everybody has to go this direction. So do you have any, I mean, in talking with people, what do you think about, about AI and what and how it is going to keep people on their toes, but it might prevent people from really thinking really long range?

Amy Hinote  
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think we're at a stage right now that we were see what, let's say, 2004 we all had servers in our offices, right? And then, so do you upgrade your server system when everything's moving to the cloud? Hell no, you know. And I mean, that's not what you do. You try to make everything work until you get a cloud system that can work for you. And I think, you know, I mean, Amazon, web servers alone, AWS, changed the entire tech industry for us. I don't think people realize how expensive it was before that. So there's a huge barrier to entry that was there, that crumbled because of your ability to, you know, to house more data more efficiently. We used to have to outsource. Photo of hosting, because, yeah, you couldn't put that on your server. So, like, I think, too, the speed of change is so much faster now than it used to be. So I don't this. We're not talking about years down the road before we'll start seeing some new things, but the entire infrastructure of technology is changing. The entire org chart of a technology company is changing, and some people are not going to be able to adapt to that. I mean, that's just they don't, and they don't want to, you know what? I mean, they're really good building the tech in this system. And, I mean, there we have so many products, and we could Ask Jeeves about it. There's my spade. There are so many things that were huge that are not, you know, in a new environment. And I think that's one of the things that that we're going to see in our industry. And it's going to happen really, really quickly. We are actually ahead of hotels in this because of our ability to pivot. So I think it's the word, this will be the first major change that short term rentals will actually lead in hospitality for and that's gonna, that's a huge opportunity,

Alex Husner  
yeah, for sure. And I think we're things are going to really start to just change much more quickly than they have to this point is it's going to become, I mean, truly, a necessity. And when it becomes a necessity for companies within a market, is, if you are not the first, you're you're not in the middle, you are the last to adopt this, and your counterparts are already leaning into AI, and they're able to grow and do that more profitably. And it's, it's they're going to be able to continue to continue to grow more, because they're going to be able to take budget away from things that are costing them extra and efforts, and now be able to direct that into the things that really move the needle for a business. And it's like, you know, that's where I think, at this point, it's like, it's just so important for everybody to understand, like, you need to embrace it or die. I mean, like, it's really that bad, like, if you don't embrace it, I mean, you're the this is, it's gonna come to a halt.

Amy Hinote  
It is a, it's a slow death, right? Yeah, you know? But there is a point. I mean, we're this with veramente, you know? It doesn't. It cannot exist in its current form. You know what I mean? And it's just like, What do you when do you make that that change? And it's like Rebecca's sitting right here. We've been talking a lot. In fact, Megan's coming. She's doing consulting with us too, because of her experience with wired and Deadspin and going in new media. And it's just like trying to figure out what what the future looks like for us. I the way people consume information has changed dramatically, and it is changing so I, you know, so there's not an industry that's not being touched by this, I but the younger people, or the, I hate to say it, because I don't want to be ageist on this, but the people who are really leading edge who and, you know, in this technology as it grows, because it's not perfect, and we're not even close yet, you know, and I mean, close really quickly, but they're just going to get a leg up. Now, you've got all these legacy companies, and this is another thing that concerns me about VRM, and so I'll just being quite candid, is that we have our audience has been these enterprise level property managers. I mean, that's who we target, that's who we cater to, that's who we provide information for. We tell people all the time you know about who's coming to Durham, and it's like, if you have departments, you should come to Durham. Yeah, that's when Dharma is for you. However. I mean, that world's changing. As you guys, know, I listen to your show and you interview a lot of people who are already there, you know, who are really able to pivot and move and make changes and make adjustments to their business models that large companies really struggle to do. And so you've also got, the same time, you've got all this private equity in the space buying legacy companies. We also have a session here on Aesop's on employee stock. And I think that that is another exit that for people who really want to consider exiting but still keeping your employees, and also, you know, being able to let them benefit from it and let the community benefit. I think that's a really good option in our industry. But at what point do you stop and say, Okay, I don't want to go to the next level. You know what I mean? I don't want to have to change every system we have and how we're doing business, and maybe now is the time to sell, and I that's going to change us too, not just the tech, but also the moving out of the experienced enterprise level manager as they sell and what happens to these companies? And quite honestly, what we see that happens in most of them is the inventory. Inventory start shifting to the smaller, more dynamic companies. So it's not like they keep that in that private equity group does. Typically keep that those contracts for very long, there's a large churn.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I was talking with someone from a PMS that operates in the small host space recently, and talking about, there's so many of them that don't want to be big, they want to be small. They'll pick up a unit here and there. But I think that that's where kind of your to your point of like, changing the shape of the industries is it's evolved. I mean, they're the vast part of the vast part of Lake Haitian rentals in the US, but we're not speaking to them, but they're adopting the tech, and they're they're able to move forward. And so I think that there's kind of that mindset that we have to have to, you know, and I think from like vrma, that's where we're focusing on, from like, membership to like, try to grow into that sector, to speak to them, because they are adopting things quicker. They're going to want more things. They're going to want more out of these technology providers. They're going to probably try more tech than any any of the legacy operators have tried, and, you know, in their tenure in the industry, just because it's easier now, so it's, it's just like, it's just an ever evolving thing. And I, I hope that the legacy operators will stick around and share some of their findings and learnings and be like that kind of the Yodas, the, you know, the Yodas of the industry, to stick around to help some of these people. Because I think it goes back to people just not knowing where to go get that information. So they're going to need vrma, they're going to need VRM Intel. I mean, they're going to need these entities to provide that level of information, and I think the clarity that the industry providers aren't able to provide because they're all they're all fighting for their moment in the sun. And I think you need entities like like yours, so don't let VRM Intel go away. I mean, we absolutely need it when in whatever, whatever fashion it is, I think it's just important to make sure that all of this adapts together.

Amy Hinote  
I mean, there's so many challenges right now, yeah, in that we're not gonna solve it today. No, I know, but I'm just thinking like I'm brainstorming with you on this, like it is this legacy manager, and I hate to even call it that, you know, I'm talking about the the larger enterprise company that's experienced. We've seen a lot of people sell, and then they serve out their non compete and come back and get their contracts back, pick the get back the owners they actually wanted to have. They don't go get the properties they didn't want to have. And then they end up building a new business, and it's small, and they try to keep it to a certain level. So it's like the founders who do that come back and they don't want another 1500 unit company. And I think that's interesting. None of them do that every single time that you see someone sell and then come back in the industry, they build a smaller company. And that says something. You know, this whole thing with sonder has just been a, just a roller coaster to watch. And I, I feel bad for the guest involved. I That was always the thing. I got in trouble at a VR made show one time. Can I say this? I made at the executive summit, I just asked the question. I said, Well, this is before Vegas did their thing. And I was like, so what happens to like, a Vacasa just goes under, you know, at that time, it was before their stock split, and it was getting pretty, you know, low, and they were facing delisting, and, you know, stuff like that. And it was like, so what I mean, these are 30,000 units, you know. And I mean, what happens if, if, what happened to sonder? Had happened to Vegas. They got lucky at the end of the day, you know. I mean, what JB and Steve and those guys have done, I mean, really saved the industry a lot of reputation management issues, you know, like, it would have been really bad, but this sander thing is ugly, yeah.

Annie Holcombe  
And I think, I think that was always the conversation, that around the Casa was just that we needed to find a way to make them not fail like that. As an industry, we wanted you ask the questions, I think that's a completely always a valid question. Say, like, what if, but in but to be also like, Okay, how do we how do we help them not fail? The sonder thing? Like, I just feel like looking at the sonder thing when you're to me, and this was, I said to somebody the other day, was like, when you're operating in that arbitrage space, it just, it's just like robbing Peter to pay Paul. I mean, it just always Yeah, and I, and I know they knew that, but it's just, it just felt like that. You know, there was more signs that this was going to go south and, you know, and

Alex Husner  
there should have been a rainy day plan if they forecast, you know, of like, what, how do we make sure that this is, you know, handled in a way that, I mean, you know, respect for the industry, but also the people, the guests and everything else. Like, yeah, it was definitely not, not a great mark for the industry. And I obviously, we don't want to see anybody fail. But it's like, if you're going down that path, like, you have to be whether you're a huge company or a smaller company, like, mindful and thinking of like, okay, I need Plan B and Plan C, depending on how this goes, but hard to do that moment. So, you know, can't, can't judge, unless we were. Actually there, but definitely tough.

Annie Holcombe  
I guess the only winner was the guy that got out.

Amy Hinote  
Yeah, the early part, yeah, right, yeah, I would love to talk to Francis,

Annie Holcombe  
yeah, to be interesting conversation, yeah, probably not gonna happen.

Amy Hinote  
And he actually wrote an entire Jerry Maguire memo. It's really good

Alex Husner  
about to check that out. I remember when we had you on the show, Amy, this is probably God, this was after the whim, the first women's conference, which was when we just started the show. I think that's four years ago, and you had a brilliant line that basically said that, you know, well, there's a couple lines in there, but there's a couple, many, many, but hopefully I can remember it correctly. But it was like, you know, private equity is where good brands go to die, because we were having this conversation with you then about a lot of the bigger groups coming in that are buying up this technology and the companies, and that was part of it, but it was, you know, something about the Wild West and like the the cowgirls, and I'm totally watching it now, but we've been having this conversation for

Amy Hinote  
many years, I guess we have and but it's, you know, I think at first, it was the morning, right? Like, at first it was the watch out for this. And now it's like, Okay, now that it's happened, what's next? And I think the biggest thing that we can do at DARM is continue, and with this show is Continue, continue to create a startup rich environment, you know, create a world where there's a fairly, you know, doable barrier to entry coming in. What we don't want to do is create this moat where new companies and new technology and new business models are not welcome and not can't succeed, that they need oxygen to breathe, and I think we need to give them that oxygen, because innovation is the only thing that's been driving our industry, you know, for a long time. And I just think that and that innovation has got to go in the destination to each each destination has their own issues, but like the beach erosion and the subsistence of these barrier islands, I mean, that is a major issue right now that they're going to have to solve for. And you see, even the cities like Savannah and Charleston and Miami and New Orleans, you know, really, really put a lot of a lot of resources into mitigating from things that they're going to be environmental risk. And I um, I mean, there's an article in The New York Times that was, like, half of the barrier islands in the US one exists by 2020

Alex Husner  
50, and we're 2050 like, Yeah, that's really close. 25 years ago, I remember where I was in 2000 so I mean, 25 years from now, like, you're right, it's, that's not that far off.

Amy Hinote  
It's really not, yeah, that is a that's it. That would be a concern to me. And as you see, if I were building a business on a barrier island, it'd be something that I would be thinking about, what is the longevity of that, and who do I need to work with on that? And I know that from your time on the CVB at Myrtle. I mean, there's no way that wasn't a huge piece of what y'all did.

Alex Husner  
Oh yeah. I mean, Ryan swam his office in Garden City, south of me, and he gets flooded every time, not even just hurricane. I mean, king tide, and, like, the beach erosion down there is really, really bad. But we, we invest millions and millions of dollars every year on the beach for nourishment. But, yeah, not but not all destinations can necessarily do that.

Amy Hinote  
So how many times can you do it? I mean, like assuming that now the federal government doesn't pay for your beach renovation. So because FEMA is not doing a whole lot, there Army Corps of Engineers and basically they won't pay for it unless it's public land, rightly so. So all these places in Florida that they want to own the beach, it's not going so well. But outside of that, I think we're in a in our politics right now, you know, it, we're not doing a lot of federal spending, you know, for this kind of stuff. And FEMA is, you know, is not going to be there. Luckily, we had a really easy year this year, relatively speaking, in the US and to we don't really know yet about, you know, what happens when, like, a Michael happens in 2026, you know? And I mean, like, we don't really know what that Fallout is going to be. But, you know now, I mean, if you used to have to get a beach renourishment project every five to 10 years. Years, and now it's every two to three, and it may be annually, which also means that takes time. I mean, you have to shut down the beach for a period of time. They move down, you know, as they're doing it, and you don't want to do that in season, so everybody tries to do these out of season, which, of course, everybody's in season on the beach at the same time. So, you know, it's like, there's just such a backlog, and there's so few companies that even provide this service. So even if you have the money, you're still on a waiting list. So there, there's, we don't have the bandwidth in our country to actually do beach renourishment projects every year or two. So you know, there will be winners and there'll be losers. What we learned on our road trip was they call it strategic retreat when they let part of a destination go favor of another one. And no one talks about it like it's the weirdest thing. Like in Alabama, Dolphin Island used to be a major destination. I mean, there's no I mean, there's no new building there, like they've decided to let that go in favor of Gulf Shores in Orange Beach, and then they'll let Fort Morgan go next. You know what I mean, if they have to to preserve Orange Beach. And you all know, like in your destination, which beach

Annie Holcombe  
where they are, yeah, exactly.

Amy Hinote  
Okay, they're gonna let that go, Yeah? Same thing in the panhandle, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this gonna be the Battle of the beach really quickly.

Alex Husner  
It literally, yeah. I mean, it's like, God, how many more battles can we possibly add into the mix of things worried about, well, and employees.

Amy Hinote  
I mean, I think too, that being able to afford to live close to a beach is going is changing too. This won't help, because these are older houses that a lot of them are living in, and how that morphs and how development happens is going to be interesting. It's not, it's not going to stay still about for sure.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, so on the on the note of a lot to talk about, I think what's exciting is that you incorporated this year is you've got all the different podcasters, like, we're all going to be doing different doing different interviews, and so I think that's going to be really fun. Maybe share a little bit about what your concept was for that, and what you're hoping, I guess people will take away from being able to get all these different leaders in rooms to be on different podcasts. Yeah, I

Amy Hinote  
think that when we're looking at the different types of content that are here, these interviews with these executives, I felt like other people could benefit from like to learn how a company is doing things and what their model is like, and where they're going with that. And so what we're doing is all, not all that our industry's top podcast,

Annie Holcombe  
we had all of them when they'd be really

Amy Hinote  
these days, y'all are getting to choose room people to record, and we are going to be live streaming. And so that we will kick that off, you'll be able to access that on LinkedIn, but it'll also be on our YouTube channel, and we are going to live stream from Tuesday. At 10am Central time through Wednesday till about four, from 10 to four, and then 10 to four on Wednesday Central.

Alex Husner  
So we're actually live. I did not know that really cool. I love that.

Amy Hinote  
And actually I record recording, so you'll have the footage.

Annie Holcombe  
Well, I don't know, Alex, we're that. We're the first one up on Tuesday. I picked up early. We're gonna break it all in.

Alex Husner  
No, it'll be, it'll be great.

Annie Holcombe  
So we're gonna do Dennis from Castle, and then we'll have Alex his narrows from stay Tara, oh, nice, yeah, Alex. I've known Alex for years. I met him when I was at, actually, Expedia, because I managed the wind and vacation rental and, you know, ml, yeah, I met her, like, once or twice, really, really spectacular lady. And then actually, Delaney Schulze, who she's doing some doing some sessions. Delaney was worked for Alex as their revenue manager, and so her and I've known each other for years, but it's just neat to see where he's gone, because he went back to the hotel side, like when within Wyndham, and just stayed there for a while. And he, I know he came out a couple of years ago and was working for some other other like, kind of short term rentals, like more urban stuff, but I haven't seen him in a while, so it'll be really neat to see what he's got going on, just to catch up. And I think, like the people that we had to select from, I mean, this is just a really, like you said there's, there's great leadership. The CEOs are coming. I mean, this is definitely the show show to be at. So this is going to be exciting. And I think I love that you're doing this. It's something that I think, like a lot of the podcasts have pushed for to have it shows. We tried a little bit of this at not live streaming, but at vrma, and did a lot of interviews, and that was a lot of fun. And I think it's just something that we can you can get more people who maybe thought they wanted to come to the show, involved in the show, and maybe they'll think, oh gosh, I have to be there next time. So I think it's just a it's another marketing tool for you, for

Amy Hinote  
sure, like you said, it is. It really is. And it's also like, for the people who really can't come to kind of not feel like they're being loved out of it, too, I think, you know, there's that, but I also think there's just so many people in one room, right? It's like, it's really dumb not to get as much as we can out of these people being there. So like, Steve Schwab is one of them. Steve Milo is another. All the Steves. We have all the Steves. Simon is doing a couple too. He's got a really good one with Jeremy and Richie, or Jeremy and enerog is one he was looking at, and that's going to be interesting. In fact, there's gonna be a lot of there. There are a lot a lot of things that are gonna be announced over the next month or two that are going to really be newsworthy. So I think he's trying to get in front of some of that. But, like, I who else is on that? So we have Tim and Tiffany,

Annie Holcombe  
yeah, and then Ashley, Ashley's doing Yeah, Ashley from in Haven, she's going to interview Steve and Amber, hurdle and Amber, yeah, good personnel.

Amy Hinote  
Amber's got the away Day to you that's going to be interesting, nice. And Tim and Tiffany have Boogie for who is the new CEO track, yeah, and you see who's been really developing on their system. So we've got data. Vrma is going to do one too, and tell us what they're what's coming up for with vrma. And I'm excited about that, about your new direction, all the strategic research you guys have been doing,

Annie Holcombe  
yeah, been talking to DMOS, and I think it's just, and it goes back to what you were just kind of just talking about the thing in the markets. It's like, I don't think that vrma has really been able to understand everybody's unique needs unless it's brought to them. But this way, if we get more involved with the DMOS, we'll understand and be able to activate, you know, just like the stuff that Tiffany does from advocacy, but just other things. I think it's just bringing the industry, kind of getting more of a collective voice together, and it's just so important for us to do that, to keep moving forward, especially with all this AI, because we just don't know where we're going to be in six months. So exciting. Good stuff. Are tickets still available? If anybody's interested, okay, they are.

Amy Hinote  
And because our on day one, we have a pretty decent track that is very geared towards the panhandle, so we started offering some day passes. So those are available too. So if you can only come for one day, those tickets are available there. Yeah, day one starts out with Tiffany's doing a state of the state of the you know about what's going on in Florida with short term rentals, lots of changes with fees and taxes and insurance and things like that, so that it's like the money side of owning a vacation home is changing quite a bit in Florida, and I think that's one of the things that they're concerned about right now. Then we've got all of the data, you know, and then we have, after our major state of the industry vacation rental data, then Jason is doing a breakout of just Panhandle data, and we, there's a lot there. We are talking to the head of beach operations for Fort Walton County, not for for Walden County. So to also talk about the, you know, what's going on with their beach, and the ownership of the beach, and, oh yeah, that's a very hot topic. Let's see what else. So anyway, it's just a lot of that kind of that kind of stuff. Air DNA is doing a lot with data at this show, so I think we'll know a lot about how everybody's doing by the end of the show. I don't know what 2025 ended up, or is ending up looking like for people now, so I'm kind of curious to see, I

Alex Husner  
mean, really a mix. You know, I feel like there's some anomalies where some people have had a great year, but it's typically because something fundamentally big has happened in the business. Either they've taken they've grown a lot this year, or they've bought another company, or some other arrangement has come into play. But I mean, for the regular operators, that nothing has really changed a whole lot from this year compared to previous years. I have a couple clients that are doing really well, and others that are about the same. And others I've talked to that are, you know, they're, they're they're down. So it's like, I think it is for sure, market dependent, and for sure in the panhandle, I mean, 30 a market with all the things you're talking about, with the the beach restrictions and everything else. And, you know, there's some things that are just really hard to overcome, even if you're doing everything right. So it's so true, once you

Amy Hinote  
lose people, it's hard to get them back. I mean, we went to Myrtle right after the Women's Summit, yeah, North Myrtle, and had a great time. I mean, like, really great time. And like, totally planned on going back, you know what? I mean, as opposed to maybe a Hilton Head, right? Like, you know what I mean? So I think that, you know, same thing we're benefiting from that in our market. Actually, all three of us are benefiting Myrtle, Panama City, Gulf Shores, like, you know when, when people get too high or too high on their own. Lie in some of these other markets, you know, when they start restricting beach access and things like that, then they come back to our destinations and realize that we've improved. You know, we've got a lot of new stuff, and everything is cleaned up. And I think

Alex Husner  
it's just generally, I mean, like you look at people that used to come to Myrtle Beach, that they come, and there's still many of them, but they come year after year after year. I think that, as a tradition is is going away. I mean, that's eventually going to phase out. Because I think as these, you know, the people that are making the decision now and where they book that are more, you know, my age and like now, they're planning the trips like they're they want to go see other places. So it's like, I think the destination loyalty is a hard thing to to get, and that's just been a continuous erosion, because it's just so easy to book somewhere, anywhere at this point that it didn't used to be that way. But for the legacy companies that they really rely on, that bread and butter, that repeat business, you know, it's just not there in the same level that it used to be. So it's like, every guest you come like, you want them to come back. Maybe they're not going to come back every year, but like, how do you still stay in front of them in a way that you know, if they go visit Gulf Shores next year, but then the following year they decide they want to come back to Myrtle, but how do you keep in touch with them in a way that, like they're going to have that stickiness, and that's the biggest challenge right now to solve. From marketing perspective, I

Amy Hinote  
completely agree. I've never said this before. You guys have known me for a really long time, and I've been anti company selling. I'm like, this is still such an amazing industry, you know, so don't do that yet. There's so much there's so much growth. There's so where to go. But I gotta say, I mean, this is probably if I were running a 1500 unit company right now, and someone came to me with some 8x 686, x7 x 10x whatever they're doing now, crazy stuff offer. Yeah, I'd probably take that. I mean, you know, there are just so many challenges. The whole business is going to change. And if you're not willing to, you know, go to the next level with it then, I mean, now that there's money coming in, you know what I mean, there are options to sell. Those options won't always be there. If these private equity companies all start losing, you know what I mean, and the music stops and you know, they don't have a chair, then other private equity companies won't be there. You know? I mean, they follow the leader. So there will be a time that those offers for those companies, I mean, that you won't always get that. And right now, they're there, and it's a it's a good opportunity to to cash out and sell

Alex Husner  
different options, you know. I mean, it used to be for for many years, that it was just mostly Vacasa, and maybe, like, one or two other that were kind of more behind the scenes, that were looking to buy property managers. But now, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different options, and, yeah, the the multiples are quite strong.

Amy Hinote  
Yeah, you're talking about, you know, life changing money, yeah. But I mean, for anyone who still loves it, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to say that, but I it would be really tempting for anybody at this point. And like I said, these offers won't always be there. So I mean, and we don't even know some of these beaches are even going to be there. You know what I'm saying, There's got you thinking long term, your opportunity to cash out when you know when to cash out, it's a major strategic decision, and if it were mine, this might, we might be getting close to that talking about how companies are going to move forward. They're going to find low resource ways to move forward. AI is going to change that dramatically, to have to hire less people, you know what I mean, and be able to do things with a whole lot less cost. And I those options are going to be available, and the new companies are going to find them first. I mean, that's just

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, where we are. Yeah, people are exhausted. I think you're I think you're absolutely right. It actually deserves, like, a whole session of like, when to know, you know, when, when does, when to say it's time to go, or when not to, you know? I mean, I think that there's just, people just get lost in it. And the multiples can be really attractive. And then, you know, we're talking to, oh my gosh, what is, I can't think of her, Angela, the lady from Maui, you know, that lost her business. I mean, you know, she had it right there. And there's, she's someone who absolutely was making all the right decisions for what she was going to do for her family, and it just went away. So to your point, these things aren't always going to be there, and you never know what could be in between making that decision.

Amy Hinote  
Well, there's just so much environmental risk, Oh, for sure, especially there's political risk, you know. There's all kinds of stuff. Troops in Charlotte, North Carolina, you know? And it's crazy. Help anybody? Yeah, people also, historically, this annual, this idea of being going on vacation once a year, wasn't, you know, that's a fairly recent phenomenon, yeah, in the So, it's like this idea. Know that people will go on vacation and continue to want to do that or be able to, you know, it's also something that's not really a guarantee,

Alex Husner  
and that's where timeshare comes in. That's their main selling guarantee that you can if you just pay upfront,

Annie Holcombe  
maybe timeshare is going to see a resurgence, right?

Alex Husner  
Yeah. I mean, they always kill it. Yeah, they do

Annie Holcombe  
crazy business.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, it's wild. And there's a lot we can learn from the whole model, I think. But for another time, but for now. Amy, what is the promo code that our listeners can use? I think it's just Alex, Annie,

Amy Hinote  
Alex and Annie, all caps, all one word, perfect,

Alex Husner  
and go to VR darm.com and you can get your last minute tickets. See us there, be part of the most important conversation of the year, many conversations of the year. If you're able to make it down there, we highly suggest it. So we're super excited. When you

Amy Hinote  
sign up. You do get the video package. We're recording everything. Oh, good. Oh, cool. That's there's so many sessions there this, it's hard to choose what to go Yeah, but yeah, they don't have to worry about that. But that video package is going to be pretty insane. It's about 80 videos and, holy cow. So that alone is worth coming for.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, for sure. That's great.

Amy Hinote  
Of course, we're going to be there too, the

Annie Holcombe  
original women of vacation. Amy, thank you so much for all that you do for the industry, and we're excited to see you again, and hopefully get to have break bread and have a glass of wine together. I will see

Amy Hinote  
you very shortly.

Alex Husner  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, in the meantime, if anybody wants to get in touch with Annie, and I can go to alexandanypodcast.com and we will see you next week, hopefully.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai