Does Vacation Rental Software Still Have Room to Grow? With Hospitable CEO Pierre-Camille Hamana

Welcome And Sponsor Message

Alex Husner 0:01

Welcome to Alex and Annie, the real women of Vacation Reynolds. With more than 35 years combined industry experience, Alex User and Annie Holcomb have teamed up to connect the dots between inspiration and opportunity. Seeking to find the one story, idea, strategy, or decision that led to their guests' big AHA moment. Join them as they highlight the real stories behind the people and brands that have built vacation rentals into the$100 billion industry it is today. And now, it's time to get real and have some fun with your hosts, Alex and Annie. We'll start the show in just a minute. But first, a word from our premier brand sponsor.

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Meet PC And His Hosting Origin

Alex Husner 3:02

Welcome to Alex and Annie, the Reliment of Vacation Rentals. I'm Alex and I'm Annie. And we are joined today with Pierre Camille Hamana, who is the founder and CEO of Hospitable. Pierre, who also goes by PC. It's so good to see you today.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

It's fantastic to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to it.

Annie Holcombe 3:21

Well, we appreciate you staying up late. Uh Brussels time. I think you said it was nine o'clock. So you're seven hours ahead of us. So we are hoping that we get the exciting version, the late night version of PC here. Um before we get started, why don't you tell us a little bit about you? And your, I guess maybe because you've developed your you're the own almost primary owner of Hospitables. So you can give us a full story there.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, and it's not going to be contradicted because no one was there at the beginning. Um no, uh thank you so very much. I think uh yeah, I mean, I'm I'm like uh like many people in the industry, I was not born uh like in a shorter mental hospitality industry. I that from that was very far from the background of my family. Uh I was trained as a lawyer, um, which is not exactly the most useful skill set for shorter mortal business, I hope so, or in a tech company either. Um but yeah, basically I was looking for a job here in Brussels and I found uh I worked with uh with my housemate, and that housemate left. Uh and I had to basically look for uh a way to keep the flat full. And at the time, that was really the beginning of Airbnb over here in Europe. So I said, I'm gonna skill this thing, I'm gonna host as many guests as I can and develop that business. So that was really amongst my very first businesses that was really being a host on Airbnb. And I think I hosted, yeah, 450, 500 guests on the simplest of setups, just one private room and one couch where friends could be crashing uh as well too. And so that was pretty intensive. I was also offering at that time to every single one of my guests uh an experience. It was well before the launch of uh of Airbnb's experiences at the time. And that was basically a beer testing, a beer testing experience with nine different beers. So you would take the small glasses, so I don't just drink water, uh, and uh basically uh making uh having those guests and discover uh making them discover basically uh what Belgium uh would have to offer uh on the web, mostly between Paris and Amsterdam. And uh yeah, that was a that was a fantastic thing. However, there was that ding in the middle of my little show uh that was the next guest asking a question or new reservation, and I was really frustrated about the fact that I needed to immediately stop it, go copy my message, replace the first names or the last names, and trying to basically come up with a booking confirmation or an answer to the the questions that those guests were asking. And uh yeah, damn, that was basically 2015. And uh, you could do a mail merge on so many other products, but for some reason on short-term rentals, you could not just do that. And so that's how came up the idea of then smart BNB, creating a way to automate all the recurring, I want to say most annoying messages that you can you can send, you need to send to your guest, otherwise it's almost like a fault uh to not give to give them a brief, to not confirm the reservation, to not answer the questions inquiries, um, and to send them messages along the stay, even though I was there the whole time as a as a private room host.

The Frustration That Sparked Automation

Alex Husner 6:22

Wow. I don't think we've ever had anybody. That's how they got started, that they were doing it the original old school way of Airbnb. So that that's fascinating, Pierre. And to I mean, 2015 was not that long ago. I mean, to see now where you've grown hospitable, that I mean you guys have have have grown substantially over the years. So how did you decide to then just start a software business?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Uh that's a great question. Um I actually, first of all, I was doing everything for myself. Uh, and I've discovered that that was actually filling a great purpose. There was a time when I was traveling with my my siblings, with my my brother and sister to Rome, and I realized that I was able, while I was traveling, while I was visiting, to book an entire uh another guest, an entire reservation without having to lift a finger. So that was very valuable to me. Um, is there a chance that it may be valuable to other people too? And basically, with talking to host, you realize that that was really a very significant gap in the tech stack at the time. So that was really, again, we're now we are early 2016. That's really the year was when Smart BNB was launched. There was no messaging automation existing on Airbnb, or it was really rudimentary on, I think, Verbo at something like that. The booking.com was not present at all on the short-term control space. So it was a very different uh ecosystem that you had back then. The idea of a property manual software was extremely fringe, if not reserved, to the world of hotels. And what I needed was just basically a messaging automation software that fixes my problem. My problem is just I want to make sure the next guest, uh the one after are all receiving the great some great messages that are more personal than just what I could generate myself by doing a quick copy paste. And uh the technology was already existing there, and uh, the challenge was basically then, okay, or do we educate an industry about the fact that messaging automation is okay? Something that now is pretty resolved, is it?

Annie Holcombe 8:24

Okay, okay. So you got the messaging down. You got the messaging down. Obviously, that's not where hospitable is now, not still only messaging. So what was the what was the evolution, I guess, from that point on to where you are today?

From Smartbnb To Full PMS

SPEAKER_01 8:38

That's a that's a very good question. And I if you had interviewed me on several uh several years ago, I would probably have given you very different answers. Indeed, the the original idea was not to build a property mono software, because as I said, that idea was very fringe, uh, I believe, at the at the time. The the problem that we wanted to solve really well was really messaging automation. The messaging automation means that you need to have all the data interacting with your guests. That means you need to have an inbox. But then if you have all of that information, why are you not showing that over with cleaners? So then we build an operations product. But then if you have that, then I'm missing out on some other reservations that I'm having from other channels. And I want to make sure that I can communicate with them through your inbox and the messaging automation and make sure my cleaners get it. So now you need to be have multiple integrations. But then why, since you have this integration with all those different channels that are so rich and in-depth, why would I not be able to adjust my pricing? And so the reality is.

SPEAKER_06 9:35

It's like build one thing under another.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Layer upon layer, you basically end up, and and that's that's really an interesting phenomenon because there are many products that basically would start from a different position and they never feel the need to basically get into a property matter and software or channel manager. But however, the point is once you have all the guest information, the guest centric data, you basically need to have everything backed up because everything enriches the stay and the guest experience. It's a gravity well of features that need to be delivered to get to the next level for the guest experience, the operations, and then ultimately maybe even the owners. So the it's all about the the it's all about the guests, obviously, in this industry. And so once you start with the guest data, you are obliged to roll out the full cycle. Just imagine if you had a record of all the employees in the company, uh, in a company, you're gonna build an HR software. If you add a list of all the customers of that of the of the product, you're gonna build a CRM no matter where where you where you start, uh, because ultimately you're gonna need to enrich the data uh with everything that you that you need to do.

Alex Husner 10:41

Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. And I think that's been a similar pathway for you know a lot of the property management systems that kind of grew up in that same time period that the messaging was a big thing to tackle. How did you uh I mean, because from your perspective of just renting the one you know shared space to understand the business at large and the industry at large, like how did you gain that knowledge? Like, did you you know get some key hires that started working with you that brought in kind of more experience on that? Or did you just go to all the conferences and listen to every session?

SPEAKER_01 11:14

I so you know, I don't think I I I don't think I get it. Probably that's a thing that I should not be saying out loud, but that's that's probably the reality of it. I'm very glad that I'm not coming, I'm not coming genuinely from the property management industry or from property management angle that was really about fixing my own problem. And that basically is how the smart BNB or then now hospitable got started. But I I don't want to be the smartest person in the room all the time. I I would rather be learning from what people are doing and not try and frame it as basically it needs to be working in this particular way. Uh and I think that I think a lot of software companies in the space have definitely been starting from that journey on a property management company, being able to scale their operation, investing into software, and realizing that there may be value for the next property management company. So that's a system that has been working for quite a few property management software. So great for them. Uh my my journey is uh is a little bit different in that it was always about creating a software company from the experience that I that I had and adding operators that had similar experiences along the way. So we have uh we have 20% of our team that basically are property managers or uh self-managers themselves. It's very important, that's especially in the sales, in marketing functions, in product functions. Uh, some are very lucky, um very like acquire the short-term rentals because they start as they are employees of hospitable and then uh start being are being able to turn into real estate investors. But I think that that's that's been the thing, is that we don't really tell you what is the one way that it needs to be working. We're not that open-united. We also know very much that every single property manager has a different operating process. Uh and so what works for one and what makes them very successful might not be exactly what resonates most uh with the culture, with the skill set, the talent uh that you have in your company. And that's totally okay.

Annie Holcombe 13:12

I have to say, I um I um in my started my consultancy last fall, and my very first property manager client um with Annie and Co. was a small property manager in Indianapolis. And she told me she used hospitable, and I said, Well, I've heard of them, but I've never really done anything with it. So I got in and I got like through played with it and played with her account. It was like super user-friendly, like very easy. We got her connected on a new channel and she was live and you know, like besides some issues that were not nothing that was like the system fault. Um, but it was very, it was very easy. And then I learned just what you were saying. I thought it was fascinating that so many of the team are actually property managers. And I've done some webinars with some of your team before. And I think it's super helpful because they're coming from a place of understanding the software and selling the software and understanding how it all flows, but they also come at it from like an actual user standpoint. So they've kind of found their workarounds and found how it works really, really well. So I think that I don't really know of any other PMS companies that have that mix, their employees are really heavily into the business. I think that they've picked up people maybe along the way that were, you know, have a unit here and there. But I know I think your head of your sales and your um customer success team, he has 20 plus properties in the Atlanta area, and he's very well versed on the industry, but can just talk through all sides of it. And I think that's something that um, you know, from the hospital standpoint and in the marketplace, it it's very, very well received and it it just it says a lot about how you've put this system together.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, I I think so that was uh referencing Direc, who is indeed our VP of sales that has been uh is a property manager on its own, with his own uh with his own properties, uh, that is able to automate it. So has been a customer of Hospitable for several years, then an investor into Hospitable, and uh yeah, we're basically doing the fourth conversion of basically making them making making Direc an employee for the for the past 18 months. Uh it goes up, but it's it's at the top, but it's also for everyone in the company. So an engineer that's building on a feature is likely going to be using that feature for their own guest. And that totally changes the mindset, the attention to detail, the the obsession that you have the freedom all of a sudden to have because you are yourself the user. Um I think it there is very challenging to find real estate investors that necessarily want to work in a tech company and uh and basically can can bring something there to the table. Um but uh but yeah, it's it's definitely has been enriching our culture very meaningfully because the job is for everyone in the company to um be an investor, uh to be a real estate investor and be able to experience their product. That's that's what success looks like, uh frankly, uh for for for a junior engineer or product manager that just gets started into hospitable.

Ideal Customers And The Graduation Path

Alex Husner 15:59

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. It's a great story. It's a great Yeah, yeah. I mean, skin in the game is a big thing, you know, and that's that's a good way to do it for sure. What would you say? What's what's the kind of ideal customer profile for you, Pierre, from a size and maybe location? Is there any preference or kind of where your sweet spot is as far as you know, type of company?

Why PMS Adoption Stays So Low

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I I think there is probably that image of hospitable that we've been working really for self-managers. That is very true. Uh, and that's for a clear reason. It's a very meaningful part of the industry. So that's 85% of the market that is today run by self-managers that have less than seven properties and that basically are operating their own. Uh, I think there needs to be a software that's working with them without necessarily all the bells and whistles that come necessarily attached to the product property management software. Um, that might be owner to be able to run a service provider business as a property management company. Um, so that is really, I think, the part where we're a bit more unique than other alternatives. But over the past, I want to say two, three years, we've really developed a very solid offering that is working for property managers as well. And it comes really from our own experience where you the problems have changed uh in the course of the growth of a uh of an operator that become that started maybe as a self-manager with hospitable and then becomes helps out of friend, and then two, and then they refer each other, and then all of a sudden, wait, I'm actually in business. I have a co hosting business, I have a property management business, and the problems that I'm experiencing are very different from what I've been starting. So we had this phenomenon of graduation uh from hospitable that now is no longer uh is no longer a thing, I want to say, because we have a mogul plan that is also having all the owner statements, the accounting integrations, the owner payouts directly, so participating in a transfer of funds directly between owners and managers to really be streamlining the operation of a property manager product. And that part really starts from the moment when you start your property management business really to hundreds of properties that we have uh we have customers that are well in excess of that, that are running on running on hospitable. So and the the so we by talking to those two different segments of the market, uh that that allows us to do things that probably no one is thinking about in the industry. Um but um yeah, one of one of those initiatives that we are we're gonna we will be unveiling quite soon is the property manager marketplace. We have the owners that may be underperforming, may uh be burnt out because of the work that it takes uh to be uh to be running the short-term tall. Automation can help a lot, but we all know there is a last mile. Uh, and that is the one that is uh taking some emotional involvement, um, that is the most difficult to manage, uh especially if you have your own uh day-to-day job that and a very successful career at that. So we want to be able to promote great property managers that are in your area and make the case for them so that we can help uh our property managers to grow their businesses through their property management software. And I don't think that's really a thing that you that you're you're doing a lot.

Alex Husner 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

And on the other part of it, uh, so we're gonna talk about that a little bit more later, but that really is that we believe that software adoption in the industry is abysmal. Uh it's not just me saying that. I think you may have seen that report from AirDNA in the space. So you basically have 35% of listings in the US that are software connected. Yeah, but that's because 35%, that's really I don't know, maybe that's big uh for a lot of people. It's really uh the do you have other products that are at least as complicated as a property management software like a CRM, an HR system, uh, an ERP on accounting software. They have 80% market share for small, mid-sized businesses. So even very small businesses would very quickly have a CRM, would very quickly have a way to manage their payroll rather than doing it themselves very clearly. Those are solved problems that as you found and you create your business, you don't want to just build it again. There's no point in that. And yet for this industry, the property management software adoption remains at measly 35%. Uh and I think all the problems that basically we talk about in this in the industry, such as direct bookings, dependency from OTAs, professionalization, all stem from that very single problem. That if you don't have software, it's very difficult to distribute to more than one platform. So of course you're gonna be dependent on that. Therefore, the quality of the integration may be different, therefore, the attitude from platforms will be will be different as well. Uh you're not gonna professionalize if you don't automate. Software is now absolutely 100% AOK to be using, and people know, but it's so complicated. Like when you hear um like you need to have the sales call, you need to the qualification calls, the demos, the implementation, the onboarding to a customer success manager, that doesn't talk to me. Like if I if I if if I had been basically that one burning out host with one listing, one private room and one couch, of which there are millions, I like sorry, I don't well, I don't have the time, I don't want to spend the time and oh boy, how expensive is that gonna be? Uh and the reality is that a lot of that has been inflated in its complexity, and you can actually have a very streamlined efficient experience, like uh like you were talking, Annie, uh, on basically the fact that you can have a self-service experience for property management software. Even if if you're a professional software buyer as a property management company, might be hard to believe. But that's basically has been how we've been operating for the past nine years and a half. Uh now running uh hundreds, hundreds of thousands of listings uh in the world, and in total, five point two billion dollars in customer payouts last year. Uh so that's pretty meaningful scale uh every time when I when I quote that. Pretty humbling to be honest.

Annie Holcombe 22:04

Proud of that.

The Less-Than-Free Essentials Plan

SPEAKER_01 22:05

But no, no, no, it's a lot of responsibility. When you're in there, it's like, well, yeah, well, we we really want to make sure we we count them right. Um but uh but yeah, and so that that's really been the paradigm of the industry, is basically property management software is for the grown-ups, for the professionals, for the people that already have things figured out. No, it's the way to get there. It's it's just a tool. It's just uh you you you can it can it should take you from where you are and get you for where you want to be. Uh and so yeah, we we want to have that mission. And so that is uh the release of our essentials plan, which is uh no subscription, uh, no limits, unlimited properties, uh channel management product that allows you to replace iCars, have the unified inbox, have the guest uh the messaging automation, have the operations product, have the metrics, all that basically a property manual software can do without getting without having an invoice at the end of the month. Actually, less than that. It's less than free. Sorry if I'm getting excited here. It's less it is less than free. It's not a free product. I'm I'm barred from paying it. I'm actually, yeah, we we are paying you. The the very first step that you got to do in an onboarding checklist is basically how to get paid. And I'm not joking because the using a property minor software means you have those upsells, like an early check-in, late checkout, that are absolutely universal in the industry. That's the ancillary income that you can get. We also have a reselling trip insurance, so we can get we can give you a ref share for this. And there are multiple more initiatives that are basically coming up where we want to pay out uh the oaths themselves because it needs to be a driving incentive for going, adding that little layer of complexity, then simplification into your hosting life. You need to have less than free product to basically ensure you're gonna have software adoption in the market. Free is not good enough because it still requires implementation work.

Annie Holcombe 24:02

Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here. Um but like I'm so excited. And Alex, like, so I we we talk about it all the time, and you said it like the adoption is abysmal. We we Alex and I know that from talking to everybody and just looking at it. And like one area that I focus on is like trying to get education to those smaller operators so they understand all of these things. Um, so I I would love to go into the conversation when you came up with this idea and said, I want to give it away for free. And you went to your team and they were like, huh? How did that how did that work out?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um yeah, so there's actually a flashback moment. I think that would have been eight years ago, and someone told me, You, if you want to get any kind of adoption, any kind of good product, you need to go free. And I was like, what the fuck is this asshole? Yeah, you want to tell me something about that? Like what I could charge, I could charge a recurring fee, and uh, you're telling me that while I'm having like uh$3,000,$4,000 a month. Like thank you so very much. I'm gonna I'm gonna pass on this. But but the idea has been has been nagging me, I think, every once in a while. Um we it it was I I would I would love to say it's all a strategic master plan and take all the credit for it. It's not quite true. Um but one of the things we found out when we released direct bookings is the fact that most of the problems are not about the direct booking website itself. It's actually about the payment infrastructure, the compliance bits, the insurance, the guest, uh, the guest verification. Uh and we've built an Ontario product for it about around a merchant of records, so that you can go live on the direct booking website without having to take care of the most annoying part of rebuilding your own uh online travel agency, your own booking platform. Um, and in doing that, we realized okay, there is an Ontario arc that we can have as a software provider, which is all around the facilitation of payments. And that was really in 2020, late 2020. Uh, so I think we're earlier than other property management software that wanted now to do the payment processing products that we, I think I'm sure you've been you've been talking about here. Um but the part is merchant of records means we take all the risk on the transaction for high-value transactions that have a high rate of cancellation and therefore a high rate of chargeback as well. So we take all of that chargeback risk, we take all the payment processing risk as well. So, for example, you have a guest that cancels. Um, you to you always have on Stripe basically the payment processing fee that's sitting with you. That's not the case for us. So we are able to approximate the convenience of a booking platform on a direct booking. And that was a requirement for us because we need to bring it, I won't say to the masses, but really, you know, in all honesty, to my mom. And I don't want my mom to understand what a chargeback is. I don't want my mom to get under underwriting, I don't want my mom to basically go rent out on the internet with a stranger that doesn't get their ID verified and is probably using a SkyMe credit card. So that bit was there. And then you realize, okay, but then we have we are generating all those upsells. And so we came up to a point where if you do the economic analysis, you realize that you have people that are paying for a subscription, a subscription to hospitable, but they may actually generate revenue on top of it, uh, of on top of those transactions with completely aligned incentive. Like we want to grow direct bookings uh because we make a little bit of money on that, but that's also your incentive because you want to diff you want to differentiate uh your portfolio distribution. Same for uh for for several products like upsells, like those early check-in and late checkout products. So we've done a study, we've done some kind of optimization and realized you know what, it's actually it might it might just fly. Now, about your your question about basically how was that conversation about basically going free? Whoa! Uh there there is a point where owning the business is really good. If I may say, I want to do this, and they don't argue.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

This is you're you're you're the business at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

I can assure you there there was plenty of arguments, plenty of conversation. I can know I'm also an expert. I can I can't come up with all the reasons why it's not gonna work, but that's not my job. My job is to find one way to make it work, just the one. Um but the no, the reality is that the the listen, it's pretty clear. What is the industry doing to basically have 51% adoption? Well, if that's selling more recurring subscription, more demos, more meetings and more calls, you're gonna you have a very big problem. We are the industry has a very big problem. It doesn't work. So the today doesn't work. So the only thing that I'm doing is basically while I'm preserving everything else that our business is doing really good, really well, I'm just gonna have one extra experiment, and we're gonna learn. Hey, you know what? We're gonna learn why a free product, a free or less than free product, doesn't work in the industry. That's the worst thing that could happen to us, and if that's the case, well, that's too bad. And we're gonna go back to selling licenses and subscriptions, uh, which is very which we do we do really well, and we can we can be focused on that. But it doesn't, it doesn't have that chance of testing whether there is a need for it, whether this is the appropriate response. It may be, it may not be. But I also just find it odd that basically for all those products I've been talking about, like CRM, HR system, or uh or ERPs, there are products that basically can do it for free or get you started on a free plan that is limited, but that basically gets you some level of usefulness that you can then expand into a full-blown product. Um and my belief fundamentally is that as you generate as you as you use software, you tend to use to consume more software. You want to do more with software once you got a flavor of the automation that you have, but it just has to take the product as to take you where you are right now. If it's a host getting started, you have no willingness to be paying$70,$50 per property. And that's the right thing. You probably should not be doing that. You have other things to be doing, but you can still benefit from a way to get you to that first booking, to that tenth reservation, where maybe then you have a bit more experience and you know what you're doing to be automating, to be distributing towards towards more platforms. So that's really has been has been the thing. But uh I think um yeah, it's a process, it has taken quite some time to lead those initiatives. I think yeah, the we it took us probably two years of on and off to basically build the features, build the infrastructures, to make that a viable path, uh and uh yeah, release it basically. So on the on the first of April. We had to do it on the first of the first of April. I mean which is basically in uh memory of the launch of Gmail, uh which occurred in the first of April, I think it was 2020, 2004. Um and uh because everybody at the time thought uh gigabytes of uh email was a joke. And uh we launched that on a on a on a town hall with our customers, and uh I think that was really uh really a great moment to be to be sharing with them that now it can be a zero dollar, no recurring fee uh plan to get started with channel management and property manual software.

Alex Husner 31:18

We'll be back in just a minute, but first a word from our premier brand sponsor.

Upgrades Transaction Fees And Limitations

SPEAKER_00 31:22

My name is Eli Stoughton. I am the owner-operator of Lahaina Studio. I have three vacation rentals in Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii, and I have been using Hospitable for over seven years now. I would say I realized pretty early on in my hosting career that managing everything manually wasn't going to be sustainable over the long term. When I started using Hospitable, the primary tests that I was able to automate were the automated messaging and the AI messaging, where Hospitable will draft a response using my previous messages and my knowledge hub and everything that I've set up there. Oftentimes I find myself just getting a message from a guest, opening up Hospitable, seeing that they've already drafted a perfect reply for me and just hitting send. And it also saves me a lot of time when it comes to dynamic pricing. If I had to manage all of my pricing manually for multiple properties, that would take a long time to get that in sync. Hospitable has had a massive impact in how I run my business because I don't know if I would have scaled my business up over time had it not been for the fact that I had software that could help me do it. Having Hospitable save me a bunch of time per week, opens up a lot of possibilities, and it also opens up more time for me to spend with my family. And you can go on a trip and not have to worry about that your business is going to run into so many pitfalls because if everything is automated as much as possible, all you have to do is sort of oversee everything. My experience working with a hospitable team is great. They're very involved in the community forum that they've set up, and you get direct responses from the founder and CEO or from the other team members. And I found that you don't often have that kind of level of communication from most companies. I highly recommend Hospitable to other hosts out there who are looking to grow their business, take their time back. I recommend that you drop in on one of the hospitable town halls, that you join the hospitable community and see what this team and this company is all about. It would really help your short-term rental business.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Run your short-term rental business on autopilot with Hospitable. Alex and Annie listeners get a 14-day free trial, plus 25% off for the first six months. Click the link in the description to get started.

Alex Husner 33:37

So and the zero dollar to get started, like where how far does that take you? Then there's got to be some things that they can upgrade and and pay for, I assume.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Damn, you cut me. Uh yes, of course.

Alex Husner 33:49

Um I mean, if if you I've I love the mission, and if you've you've taken this on for the entire industry, then you know that's great. But at the end of the day, you do have people to pay.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

So uh I I think Yeah, we do have we do have people to pay, and the reality is that there is definitely a segment of the industry that's gonna have a higher willingness to be paying, and they're gonna have significantly more benefits uh from that pay. So I think that's pretty clear. Um so there and which basically is not exactly the same when you're dealing with what your experience has been on a challenge management product. It's a product that scales really well because the stronger, the the stronger product is the one that's able to have more volume because it's able to have more fridge cases, more of that depth of the integration. So it doesn't really matter whether that's a a paid listing or non-free or non-paid listing, uh, they basically are equal and the same for us, for engineering team in particular. There there are there are plenty of upgrade triggers, there are restrictions. So, for example, um if you do not have access to integrations, and the reasoning is very simple. If you are gonna be using a third-party product, you're probably gonna be paying for it because that basically is the way it works in industry. So if you're gonna be paying a third party, that's probably a good moment for you to be paying that property manual software and get access to more sophisticated features. Um you uh if there are uh features that are basically uh where that we call transactional revenue, such as uh we have a take rate on uh on the on the upsells that we're having, we have a take rate whenever you're paying your cleaners uh via a product, then that take rate is a little bit higher. So, for example, on the spitable, you can pay cleaners at 1.5% uh kept at five dollars per transaction, and that's actually after that's actually we have one pay rent per month that's totally free. Um so basically that's for paid recurring users. If you are gonna be on free, then that's gonna be 2.5% kept at five. Uh so it's still gonna be very democratic, but uh we're gonna get there a bit faster. There are some there are some features so that are basically absolutely excluded. There are some features that are more expensive, and there are some features that are restricted. Uh so for example, for the messaging automation, uh, you have access to uh a lot of the other events, all the scheduled messages that we can have across all the booking platforms without any limitation as to the number of properties. I just want to make sure that's known too, because it's a very aggressive stance. But the booking confirmation, the schedule messages, we need to have the guest portal link. And that's just helping you do your job, which is to help you get the guest access to a platform that's different from that of the OTA, where they can have access to your ops, where they can buy trip insurance, and we will pay you on uh on those parts here. So that is the interest here online, we're here to help you make more money. And we just don't say it on the billboard, we actually are able to tell you, no, no, we are not making any money from you. We're making generating revenue as you are generating revenue yourself, and you we will take uh 7-10% of the transaction uh on top, which includes all the service fees, uh, which includes all the payment processing, the tax compliance, uh, the chargeback protection. So it's the same high-value product that would offer our customers as well.

Alex Husner 37:07

Yeah. Okay, so you're in alignment on that. And then my other question that this was a little bit ago, that you mentioned this, but I'm fascinated to find out how this works. You mentioned that you help property managers get listings in their local area. How do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 37:20

We are a property management software, so we have uh we have the numbers. Yeah. Um, and so that's something that we we we're using. So we're we're currently in a in a prototype phase. We are gonna be talking about this on the next customer town also. Um that's gonna be uh that's gonna be public then. Um but the idea is that we are able to identify those reservations that are underperforming uh based on their local market or properties that are similar in size or location. And so we can offer them like have you considered using a property manager manager? Because some of them might be outperforming. Um, some property, you know that like, for example, we have uh we have users that are canceling the subscription with hospitable because, for example, they are burnt out, they go with a long-term tenant, uh, they hire a property manager themselves. So we want them to facilitate, we want to facilitate that experience themselves. So if you opt in and you're looking for basically some some way to some person to help, uh, then we can uh basically ping the relevant uh property manager in the area, and they can get to you uh if there if there is a fit. Uh and so for property managers, that also means getting listed. So we're we're working more like a it's like it's like dating. And the reality is it's actually probably closer to what happens in reality. You need to have a strong fit between the property manager's value proposition and the vibes of the owner. Uh and we we want to be to build a product that's gonna be balanced, uh, and that's gonna mean making sure that the property manager has owners that are there, that match their match their vibes themselves, that uh they want some owners want to be very hands-on, some owners want to be very hands-of. Uh, and there are not different, there are different property managers that can accommodate those needs from the owners, and just as well on the on the value proposition from the from the property managers, we help craft the message a little bit uh so that they can be introduced to the world uh in a in a competitive space because there will be multiple property managers at uh at hospitable scales. That as scale that basically means you're you're gonna as a as a property owner, um, you're gonna have more choice than just searching on the internet, and you're gonna find uh hopefully a better track record, transparent decision, transparent uh record on the performance of those property managers as well.

Annie Holcombe 39:43

Okay, so I have a follow-up to all that. Um the one thing that I think every every person that I've encountered in every situation I've been in since I've been out of property management, and specifically around these hosts that haven't adopted software, is finding them and getting in front of them. So you roll out this free. Um, I'm assuming, I'm assuming you're not standing out on a street corner with like, you know, sandwich boards saying, hey, we're doing free software. You know, this is just something I sit on the VRMA board and we want to grow in those smaller host areas for the association because the association needs to grow and and we want to bring, you know, make them realize like that this association can speak for everybody, regardless of your size. But it's getting in front of them and actually finding these people. They're like in nooks and crannies in these markets, and nobody knows how to do that. So have you solved for that?

SPEAKER_01 40:33

I I think we're gonna find out. What I think was was missing for for a long time was definitely a value proposition that was basically like a bit forcing the interest that we're we're we're not selling you something, we're not gonna be making money off that. It's actually made like as a as a free or less than free product, um, which you can understand is line. That means you are leaving money on the table if you're just list getting listed on the booking platform. You need to develop that auxiliary income. Uh I'm I'm not naive. I mean, we're we're not naive on this. Uh we know that it's gonna be taking a lot of time, a lot of awareness to basically develop this kind of offering. Um as for the rest, we're we have yeah, we have a sales team, we we know what we uh what strategies we have to to retrieve them uh and to go and for them anyway.

What Hospitable Uses AI For

Alex Husner 41:21

It mums the word. Uh no, that was one of my questions though, too, because I I think it's uh you know, being on the B2B side, there's there's challenges with getting in front of the larger managers, but it's also a challenges getting in front of the smaller managers. I mean, especially people that, you know, if they're working a regular day job and they're managing their property on the side, you know, it's like they're one, they're very busy, so you know, where you're gonna find them is tough. But you guys have obviously cracked the code there. So that's that's super exciting. Um, I'm I'm curious, we had a conversation recently with somebody that the conversation went kind of in the direction of, you know, automations have been around for a long time. Like that's automations is it does not necessarily equal AI. Um, but what has Hospitable implemented within the system that that is AI related? Because I know you're already really strong on the automations, but like what have you been able to do now with this new level of development?

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah, uh, I mean, I can talk to her um that uh suggests with AI feature uh that I think we've rolled out in 2023, so really quickly after the announcement from ChatGPT, uh, that is connected with a knowledge hub. And so all the information plus history of previous conversations. And so that basically is now the the pretty much the only way our customers are using our uh our inbox to communicate to their guests. So basically, it's gonna be uh promoting uh an entire message that's gonna be responding with what the guests, what the host has been responding to typically in the past, without the emotional charge, without the looking for consistency, basically it's just rather sitting uh sitting on your inbox for you to be reviewing and sending. Um the the the the top users of the other inbox basically are relying on this feature uh basically to send 80% of the of their messages without any edit. Uh so uh I mean I'm I'm joking internally that we're here just to really be pushing on buttons, but that really is what it what it means. Like you click a button to suggest with a to suggest an answer, and then uh you can review it, and later you can immediately just send it. So that is now the primary experience. There is the other part, which is basically our uh our inbox AI, which is a bit more sophisticated and available for uh for our property management customers, and that's really like out of office hour, out of office um type of um type of responses that are uh where there is no human in the loop, uh, but you are going to be sending the message uh anyway. And so basically garbing all the contacts that we have, making a bit of a risk assessment on whether we are confident in answering. In this particular fashion and triple checking. So there's been a lot of effort on our side to really make sure this is an accurate response. And we have custom customers that are flying on that particular uh type of feature so that they basically are automating a lot of their responses out of those uh out of those office hours. And obviously the first feature and the first we started with an out-of-office hour and then basically rolled it out for all um for all hours of the day uh to basically have that as a first responder. Gotcha.

Alex Husner 44:31

Yeah, very cool. Very cool. You guys are already leading the way there, so that's that's exciting to see.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

I think there's pl there's plenty of others, but uh like for example, there is a there is dynamic pricing. Um that's a feature that I think now is sitting uh in very uh very commonly in the property manual software. And I think that's also helps us democratize the access to that software. You don't have to set it up elsewhere, you can just have it within the same property manual software. Um, and that helps really in uh yeah, in uh in giving the transparency of the of the of the of the numbers and of what's what's happening in the in the in those particular dates. Um that's obviously very much a big consumer in AI. Um I think I think if if I'm honest, there is a lot of features that you can build around AI. What we've always we we've probably killed more features around AI that we've we've created, because a lot of that might just sound gimmicky. Uh and like uh change the listing title, change the listing description. Okay, sure, fine. There are some that might be useful, but the I think what I see for for our category really, the the biggest improvement of AI is just basically the ability to just to just talk to your software uh so that it is so that it works for you. I think it's a lot more on the user experience side of the host towards the property management software, uh, rather than basically necessarily all on the on the guest experience, or the guest experience on the distribution side. Uh the reality is that it's there are there is always a a bit of an asymmetric cost in terms of the lack of control that you get, knowing that we are in an industry that is very adamant on things that will be done in this particular way, uh, rather than taking advantage. So there are there are plenty that we we have thoughts for, but I think fundamentally the great improvement that AI is enabling is just simply enabling that category of software to be more usable to significantly more people uh at every time of uh of the day or night.

Annie Holcombe 46:27

I was gonna say I just wanted to give you and your team a compliment. I've used the AI feature for just troubleshooting within the system and trying to figure things out. And it's it's it's quick, it's been right, it's been helpful. And I think that that's something that is, you know, if people can have that embedded in the system and it's and it's helpful. I think that's the one thing you hear all the time from some of these larger PMSs is that the support system is broken. And even with AI at its best, it's like it's they're not getting the right answers. But I didn't have a situation where I asked a question to for help that it didn't give me either the right answer or who I needed to talk to to get the answer. So you guys have figured that out. So like kudos to you for that.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Yeah, there's plenty I would love to say around around our AI support, is that it has a it has obviously a very bad vibe. Okay, it's like uh uh it's a way to not feel necessarily considered, to feel like this is not gonna be serious. There is a lot of barrier to the adoption. The reality of AI support in At Hospitable is that this is actually uh 70% of all resolutions, uh 70% of all conversations uh that are being resolved uh ultimately only with AI. It's not just about the support documentation or AI, it's really uh making actions, including support level actions that would not be uh surfaced in the in the product that it can do. Um and the the idea is yeah, we we want to scale, we're gonna have to provide a good excellent customer support for loud issues uh as it happens. And we could hire 500 people, and the reality of it is that the training and the consistency of the of the communication is never gonna be as good as what the stellary AI that we've been working with is is able to provide. To the point where we have customers that realize that they are escalated to a human, say no, no, no, close the ticket. I want to go back to another conversation to keep talking with it. I kill you not, I kill you not. This is really this is a really thing. And that also means that when when you know that on the other side it doesn't judge you, that on the other side it will always provide an answer. And you know that that answer is trustworthy because there's been a lot of work and effort, and basically you can relate with it. The reality is that you want to talk to it more. And so the volume of conversation has increased has skyrocketed. We're basically processing 200-300% more conversation in uh in the first quarter of 2026 than we did it in the first half of 2025. Like the volume has been absolutely skyrocketing because if you have a support that's gonna be responsive, competent, and can do things for you, then you're gonna want to use it a lot more. Uh, and then that means on the on the human side, what we can focus on is really the hard issues, and we can put a lot of resources to it to ensure that those are are gonna be properly answered, not just from the support stance, but really on the product and engineering side.

Build Versus Integrate In The Stack

Alex Husner 49:22

And how do you go about deciding which tools you guys are going to build internally as as native to hospitable versus ones that you know you have in your marketplace that people can connect to?

SPEAKER_01 49:33

I I wish I would have like a clear, uh, a clear answer. I find that over I would love to have more friends in the industry. Uh I would love to have more a very busy marketplace with a lot, but there is also this kind of dark reality that the property management software space is extremely predatory. Uh, this is a carnivore business model because you have this gravity world features, uh, that means you demand more features there, and there is diminishing returns unless you have amazing software, to basically have that feature sitting outside of the property manual software you have. And the the general trend has been for the past years is that more of those features that were not thought to be uh a PMS feature were basically have been absorbed. Um, like there was a wave, it was all smart devices, there is a wave that was all about dynamic pricing, there is gonna be a wave that's gonna be all about operation, there is a wave that's gonna be all about AI, where you could go with a different point uh service provider that basically does this, or you could use you are in competition with your your own uh your own feature as a as a property my own software. So that's uh that's kind of a thing. We we open with everybody uh to to be integrating. Uh, I think the the passion that was mine when I started Hospitable, when I started Smart BNB, was I need to fix that one problem and I need to fix it really, really well. If there was a way to not become a PMS, I would probably have taken it. I would have wanted to consider that, but I felt that there was really not that realistic of a plan if you wanted to have a direct connection uh with the booking platform themselves. But we have this super app strategy that is that ultimately it's not gonna be a Frankenstein stack with multiple products that are living outside. It doesn't really help in the optionality. What it means is just you have a fragmented view of your business, and uh that that that doesn't help necessarily everybody considering the source of it all is in any case gonna be the proper team and one software. So we have expanded, we spent a significant amount of time and effort in uh yeah, investing in new features, like for example, pay your own team where you could transact all the payments, you have the checklist, you can take the pictures uh for your for your cleaning checklist, because we believe that there was really a big gap uh in the in the adoption of uh feature adoption for for property manual software. So we really put uh put a lot of effort and thought into that. But this has been the case for basically multiple multiple features, where we are going to be creating something that's gonna be in competition with uh with other providers, and that's great because everyone has a different way of doing their of doing their business. We we have a particular strategy, we are taking less and less opinionated stance about about it. But um yeah, let's uh let's the best uh let's best win. In any case, the PMS is still there uh to provide the data to all the third parties.

Alex Husner 52:28

Yeah, it's a good answer. And I think sometimes it's like you can give people way too many options, and that's also extremely overwhelming for somebody that's trying to decide on all their tech. So, you know, somewhere, somewhere in the middle there is is a good balance, but it sounds like you guys have got it pretty figured out, not just for the near term, but for what you're trying to build to.

The Next Wave For OTAs And Direct

Annie Holcombe 52:48

I I did want to ask you like one just um kind of prognostication question for you. You've uh you've been doing this a while, you've seen things, you've come up with ideas, but what do you what do you see is the evolution of a property manager in three to five years, especially with you know, if you get more adoption and people can be more connected and all of this AI that's it will enable people to be more functional and get back to their hospitality that they want to do? Like, what do you where do you see the industry going in a couple of years?

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Yeah, a couple of years. Like the the pace of change is so fast. Uh where are we gonna be next month? Yeah, I I think next month next month is a very big question. The six months is basically is this gonna be AGI? Because now is is basically all the talk of town is basically what when is that is that gonna be coming? And the reality is that whatever technological uh progress is gonna be made, it's gonna take some time to trickle down. Uh and that's what what I realize more and more every day about, for example, those conversations about AI, is that the state of the art right now is very far from uh from what is being brought in this particular industry. Um the I I think for for a property for a property manager, I would like what's not gonna change? Like that's probably gonna be uh gonna be the more important question because that's the part of you can double down, because you're not gonna be disrupted on anything. It's gonna be provide always gonna be providing a great service to your owners and being as assisted as possible to basically do that in a timely fashion with a high quality, wide glove, uh, white glove standards and uh and duty of care uh towards the properties. Like you have the technology enables you to be frankly obsessive about details. The work is can be so streamlined and so automated, so much deeper that you now have a chance to do the things that you you maybe like shrug a bit a bit ago because there was a lot of other work that was more impactful. I think that's probably where uh one of one of the first parts. Um there's gonna be a lot more intense work. Uh that's not gonna that's gonna be a very different work than what we we've been working towards. I think one of the parts that I'm I'm really playing for uh is basically yeah, changing the mindset about the booking platforms. I think they're talking to them. There is a lot of anxiety about uh booking platforms being disinterrupted. The fear is that why would a would the next Airbnb guest be booking on Airbnb because they discovered somewhere else that they needed to be booking on Airbnb, and then you bet the Airbnb is kind of abandoning or the booking platform will be abandoning basically all the investment that they put into the discovery, onto the surfacing rate properties and matching, uh, which obviously is the core of their business, and now all of a sudden it's basically an AI. Uh, that's uh an AI agent that taking that over. It may be to the satisfaction of the guest, but the fear is that if uh there is no way for a booking platform to be uh to be differentiating themselves, it's just all of pure supply play. Um on my case, what I'm playing for is basically I want to have a greater software adoption in the space, it's kind of a 51% attack. Uh, is if the uh if the booking platform has more than 51% of their nights booked that are booked through uh software or a listing that is software connected, you actually are gonna invest a lot more into those uh those integrations than the current statue quo, which is basically 14% for self-managers or 35% for property managers. Um so there is a lot of captivity uh of the of the model that disappears the moment you have more uh competitiveness between the booking platforms. And I think we I think that's that's probably one of the parts I'm most curious about uh is what's what's gonna happen in this kind of competitiveness. Because uh we we see the the change in the attitude towards software connected hosts. We I don't think there's anything public on this yet, but I can I there's gonna be some there are some interesting developments in the space. Uh and booking platforms are now realizing that they need to be more host-centric or basically provide value every single day to the hosts that are getting booked on them, on their on those booking platforms. And so that's a completely uh different change, a completely different attitude than what we've I've been hearing uh about booking platforms for for a long time. Um because that's the thing, if you if you are disintermediated because the discovery layer belongs to an AI agent or ChatGPT or a cloud uh assistant, then everybody's competing for the same listings at the best rates under the best quality standards, etc. And so you you that's a great opportunity to distribute. That's obviously a great opportunity to be going direct if your listing can be now. We're no longer talking about your direct booking website that looks great to be seen. It's a group looking, it's a site that looks that needs to be great to be discoverable by AI agents to surface that this is the best way to get booked. And the agent will be entering the credit card on behalf of uh of its customer because that's that's how it flies now. So I think that those are very exciting developments. Uh, and so I I think that's gonna be uh that's gonna be an important play. I think the other part is if there is also a greater software adoption, that does mean the the historical tension between the amateurs and the professionals, the hobbyists and the prof and the professional property managers is definitely gonna be shrinking. Is that everyone will have the same tooling and it's a great equalizer. Uh, you could be a great property management company in uh in 10 years ago, you would put millions into your tech. And the reality is that it doesn't come nowhere near what an AI agent can do now. And so the new uh operators that basically are taking that have a uh a crazy level of efficiency over legacy incumbents that are relying on that software that you click to do to do actions and you click you click on buttons. This is this is no longer the pattern that works in 2026 already.

How To Reach PC And Closing

Alex Husner 59:05

Yeah, yeah. Gosh, I mean I I agree with a lot of what you just said. So I have to remember what a couple of comments I want to make, but um we we we just had uh Julie Brinkman with the CEO of Beyond on our show or interviewed her yesterday, and she brought up a similar uh you know thought about what's gonna happen to the OTAs. And really, it's if it that happens to the OTAs, it's also going to happen to the direct booking sites, though, too. I mean, it's the same thing that people don't need to go to these websites to be able to book something. And so, you know, how how your listings will actually show up in the LLMs is is super important, but it's like, will it even look like a listing on your site or Airbnb? I mean, like it might not even, you might not even go anywhere, you know. And I mean, that that's that's the the scary and crazy thing. And, you know, I've seen with a lot of vacation rental companies, ones that have been around for a long time, that you know, their their organic traffic has continued to go down year over year. And their the rise in them showing up and in chat GPTs, like it's nominal. It's it's it's definitely not proportionate to what they're losing on the organic side. But my worry is like, I think we're gonna hit a tipping point where the OTAs are just gonna be you know significantly higher than direct bookings, even even for companies that have historically had a lot of direct bookings. And then at that point, then that next tipping point is well, now maybe they're also not even relevant. And it is just it's all it's AI agents and it's LLMs that are delivering this information. But I I don't think it's just limited to OTAs or direct booking sites. I think that's gonna be the world. I mean, how we get information from anything. I mean, like uh, you know, our websites obsolete in general. I don't know. That's the crazy part is we we don't know and we can't predict it, but I do know it's gonna be it's gonna be wild when we look back and see where we are, hopefully for the best. Pierre, this was a great conversation today. And I'm so glad that we finally got to meet you because we actually haven't ever met before. So we we know Miles and several other of the team members from the hospitable team, and you guys are just great. But thank you for coming on today. And and uh I know you're sick, and it's also nine o'clock at night, so you were a heck of a trooper.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Hopefully, I was able to do a good performance, but thank you, thank you so very much for inviting me. It was an absolute pleasure to to be talking pro to be talking to you and explain a little bit of my thoughts.

Alex Husner 1:01:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Um and yeah, I'm it it took me, it took indeed quite a bit of time to get on that podcast, but there was uh some intense lobbying, I believe, happening behind the scenes to finally be there because that's the podcast of the industry.

Annie Holcombe 1:01:36

Well, we will have you back. Um, but in the meantime, if somebody wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to reach out?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

Um it's still gonna be an email. That that technology still exists. Uh so send me an email. Yeah, uh send me an email to pc at hospitable.com. I hope I'm saying that right. So I don't know, Annie, can you can you say it again? So I can make sure the HD.

Annie Holcombe 1:01:57

Pc at hospitable.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Yeah, that's that's a lot better when it's not with a French accent, I guess. So PC at hospitable.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:06

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

Oh, thank you. Uh yeah, pc at hospitable.com, that's the best way I will to contact uh hospitable and I will basically direct you to the best uh to the best person in the company that can help you out, uh, whether that's uh uh someone to help you, uh guide whether uh to help you whether hospitable is the right fit for you, or uh any kind of support or product inquiries uh that you can you can send with me, including integration requests. Uh I think there are so many people in this in the industry that are looking and that are listening to your podcast. So obviously welcoming those.

Alex Husner 1:02:39

Absolutely, absolutely, that's great.

Annie Holcombe 1:02:41

Great to meet definitely can awesome.

Alex Husner 1:02:44

Well, thank you, PC. And if anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to alexandipodcast.com. And until next time, thanks for tuning in, everybody.