40 Years of VRMA: A New Chapter for the Industry with Anne Gardner

Alex Husner  
Welcome to Alex & ANnie, the real women of vacation rentals. I'm Alex and I'm Annie, and we are joined by Anne Gardner, the Executive Director of VRMA, the Vacation Rental Managers Association. Anne, so good to see you again.

Anne Gardner  
Absolutely Good to see you both. Thanks for having me on today.

Annie Holcombe  
Absolutely well. Before we get started, why don't you give us a little bit about your background. Reintroduce yourself to our audience, for anybody that is not aware of who you

Anne Gardner  
are, sure glad to so I am the fairly new Executive Director for vrma. I joined the organization in spring of 2024, as your interim Executive Director, and then converted into being sort of your, your full time, permanent Executive Director of vrma in November of last year. And so this will be the second of our annual conferences that I've participated in, but it's been a great opportunity to join and come from a background that I have in professional nonprofit management, specifically trade organizations, and so that's I have an organizational leadership background, and have worked in a lot of tangential pieces of our industry, representing organized real estate and commercial real estate, being a sort of developer and an owner operator myself in the commercial sense, and just doing all those different pieces and parts managing an event center so hospitality front and focused, and weddings and corporate venues and whatnot as part of a structure. And so it's been a nice opportunity to bring a lot of little pieces of some of what I've done in the past in helping other organizations grow and thrive to the work we're doing right now with vrna.

Alex Husner  
Well, definitely from, you know, the outside slash inside, we've seen a lot of changes that have come, you know, to the surface since you've been involved since April 24 so just tell us maybe a little bit about the process that you've gone through. I know you've spent extensive time meeting with property managers and also the suppliers in the space and just trying to figure out, like, how do we improve what the Association offers, and how do we design for a better future? But just maybe tell us about how that has gone.

Anne Gardner  
Sure, it's been a great process. First off, and I'll say that after a year in the role, I can definitively say what I know fills a teacup and what I don't fills the ocean, still in that regard, but the process is definitely one of listening, you know, being able to help assess an organization where you are and so what are those pain points? What are those areas where we know we have sort of an immediate need. And, you know, vrma was sort of no different. In that sense, we knew we had some challenges in 2024 as far as being able to, you know, reinforce and build the organization from what I think some external forces had considered some missteps or some you know, I heard people say that they thought that vrma had lost their way. And so what I found in interviews, connections, getting a chance to meet our industry partners all over the world, as well as our own members, and doing really deep dives on everyone's experience with the RMA, including, I think both of you, I think that's pretty much how I met both of you, is that I just reached out and wanted you to tell me about your experience, and not looking for good, not looking for bad, but just wanting an honest assessment so that we could understand and identify those pockets of similarity, and also, where are the gaps where we knew we didn't have enough information in order to impanel our board of directors and our leaders who are really driving that change for vrma, what did we need to do in order to put the best data, information and opportunities for re engagement in front of them, so that they could really evaluate the whole picture and put VR may on a path that I think we all agree is new. It's a bit of a pivot and a change, and I'm still keeping the listening tour going, because to me that's really integral in any of these first few years of really being part of that fabric of an organization is you have to embody the culture, and you can do the work, and you know what might need to be done, but you have to make sure that you're really that voice on behalf of a trade organization. And we're here to move an industry forward and to unify and bring things forward, and you really have to do that in partnership, and it's about listening in conversation and then being willing to engage everyone, to take action with you. So that's really been that that next pivot that we've done is moving into action with what we've learned and not not really sitting on it or hesitating, because folks are looking at vrma for growth and change at this.

Annie Holcombe  
Point, yeah, and I think you and I had the conversation, and I told you early on that in all of my dealings with the Association, it was the first time that I felt as a supplier, just myself, that I felt heard, I felt respected, I felt like there was somebody at the organization that was absolutely listening to my perspective, and that really meant a lot. But on that note, this group of people is not shy about sharing opinions and experiences, which is great. You know, you're going to get all you're going to get all the things from everybody. But what did you, you know, probably, what were your biggest takeaways, in terms of, like, what the gaps are that needed to be filled? That's a great

Anne Gardner  
question, and it's one that I know I've been putting sort of those thoughts in place, but is there, if you will, the playbook of of what has taken VR may from 2024, to now, I would say the biggest thing I heard Annie is that VR may seem to have moved aside, or moved into a time Where we were really accelerating and we weren't necessarily still engaged in conversation and community, but the VR Ma was moving very quickly, sort of post covid. We had tremendous growth the the October event grew really quickly after 2021 and so it almost sort of took off in a gallop, and seemed to sort of leave some of those critical conversations and really communicating, that was what I heard, more than anything, was that we were not necessarily accused of not doing the work. But does it count if you're not able to connect it to your mission and vision, to connect it to your members, and really make sure that keep that alignment. And so I think that's what I learned, first and foremost, is the need for us to make sure we're communicating with the members, we're engaging, we're having conversation, and we're really just finding out what are the challenges you have day to day, addressing those pain points of transition. That's what we know now, is that the most value, I think I heard in those interviews and calls was vrma was foundational to my first few years in the business, and this is why, and folks got really specific about what were those areas where they really counted on their industry organization to help them grow their business. And what were those jumping off points as they were transitioning through the life cycles of their business?

Alex Husner  
Yeah, and, you know, I think we look back on the executive summit this year, there was a very big difference between that event and that's kind of like the I didn't go to foundations, so that was the first one that I've been to that I feel like really infused a lot of the research that you've done, and also, you know, putting together a team, you had Rachel and Tom that were kind of driving the content with with the in the program, and they did such an exceptional job. But how do you take what was accomplished at that conference that was, I think, above par for the other VMA events I've been to in recent years. How do you continue that momentum forward? And are you using a similar strategy of having Rachel and Tom or other people within the industry that are really working closely, besides your team, to make it

Anne Gardner  
happen? Absolutely, we have no fewer than 50 volunteers are working to organize, guide and produce the VR may 25 Las Vegas event that'll be taking place in mid October. And so that is a real change. Previously, I think we just didn't have enough communication, maybe we didn't have enough input, and we really want our members to understand and own this event, because it is your event. It's the largest gathering in the industry, and so we really need to make sure it's representative. And so for us, it's about engagement, and so engaging very intentionally, very different groups within the organization perspective. And so that's where I really used a lot of these phone calls and conversations. And those were the first folks I called, because anyone who was sort of honest and candid with me about their their unvarnished experience with the organization, almost all of those calls ended with someone saying that they really wanted to see vrma succeed and grow. And so that, to me, that's your kitchen cabinet, that's your bench. And so just really leaning into those who are really, I think, see an opportunity for vrma to be strong, to be a vital organization and to represent their business, because we have a lot of challenges right now where we we need that strength, and we need that unity going forward to help our industry. And you know, we're celebrating our 40th anniversary this year, and just that next 40 years, that next 50 years, and we're really just getting started. And so it really has to be Alex, the voice of the member leading the way in.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, yeah, I love it. I think this is the first year that there's actually a committee specifically for the fall event. Is that, am I correct in that I know I'm on it, but I don't think that we've ever had like, a group of people just focused on kind of the look and feel and the overall experience of of the event, and the conversations that have been had have been wonderful. And I think that there's, you know, definitely I have to laugh, because the the food always came up as as a hot button for some people, but the conversations that were had about ways to make it more engaging, and everybody's different experiences, you know, from being a supplier or being a property manager attending, you know, the sessions. I mean, I think that we went pretty deep in a lot of those conversations about, like, what didn't work and what would what could work. You know, it was really about dreaming what, what we could do to make it better. But was that something that you felt was, you know, with the board's help, was going to be key to making this event sort of pivot in a new direction and really make it everything that it could be. Was putting together that committee?

Anne Gardner  
Oh, absolutely. I smile because, you know, sort of, I guess I would say back behind the green curtain, if you will, is that we actually had a food committee

Alex Husner  
this year. Oh, interesting,

Anne Gardner  
right down to that level. And so to your point, Annie, yes, I mean, we got really detailed, but we got detailed on everything. We got detailed on the things that everybody let us know we weren't doing right and that had opportunity for improvement. And so we really just focused on what we knew we could achieve, what we believe we could achieve. You know, at the end of the event, everyone will have to tell us if we if we met the mark or not, but really knowing that we had several key areas that were important to address in this next year. The 2025 was really a year where folks were looking and seeing, okay, can VR may bounce back? Can they flex and pivot to be relevant with where the organization is needs to be and change? And so I'll say that our chair of the board, Jody rifasko, and I, when we sat down together, she she knew, because I I share every single one of these conversations I have, especially in that first six months, I would recap it with our board, because I was, you know, and still am an agent of our leadership. And so it's, it's all information gathering. You can call it, you know, op research or something, that'll inform where you're headed. But you know, once I was doing that, the leadership knew that we needed to really get re engaged at a very deep level with the members, and that the vitality of our organization, our history, our culture, is about being volunteer led. And so when people were busy after covid, and I saw a lot of businesses do this, you say, well, I'll come back to it, or I need to focus on and my business, or, you know, we had a lot of owner acquisition, a lot of company growth, and, you know, sometimes it was really galloping forward. And so during those times, your volunteer leadership role may be something that you say, well, maybe I'm not going to have as much time, or a few less hours here and there. And you get that multiplier effect of that and the fact that you know your management team, your admin team is doing the best they can, but nothing replaces folks having that instinct. You know your owner operators in the space your entrepreneurial we mimic your behavior. We follow your lead on that. And so to me, that's what's made the biggest difference. I think right now, we just went back home, if you will. Oh, I love that.

Alex Husner  
No, that's a great explanation of it, too. And so October 2021, you were referencing. That was the show in San Antonio, and I remember that was when there's a huge influx of solo operators, small hosts, that have joined the organization. How has that gone? I mean, have there? Have many of them stayed? I mean, have they? Have we been pushing more to get more into that audience,

Anne Gardner  
right? You know, that's a great question. I appreciate it in that the folks who I think came in in 2021 2022 they were coming in purely, I think, as hosts, and they didn't necessarily have a business plan or a goal or just their own career path. They were, if you will, trying us out. And I think to some extent, vrama might have been trying out the idea of working with the host community a bit. And so I'd say most of those folks kind of came in. They may have started a business, but what we know now, what we know today, in our own sort of analysis and our partners and our research partners in this, is that you know, you have roughly 43% of your I would say, qua. Qualified market is taken up with operators who are operating five or fewer properties and and that's a US based nationwide. And so when you look at that, it's not necessarily that we're looking to sort of grab and only serve that group, but when you look at that outsized percentage, those are the folks who are your future property management firms of tomorrow? Not everyone will be, but these are folks that are on that path to that. And so we want to build educated, really fantastically well trained, well engaged members of their local community, who are part of CVBS, who are part of tourism bureaus who understand the needs within lodging and the role that we have in vacation rental as really just being such a stable part of not only your local tax base, but also just an ambassador for your community. And so we want to help people grow into that, because that's a lot of detail to cover, a lot of responsibility that we have in our communities. And so we know that's a growth place. At the same time, the majority of our members are operating 2525 to 100 units, 100 units and up and larger. And so we have a real core of our membership that has grown with us and is looking and has their own business challenges. We've got some really interesting things happening at the October event for this segment. And just Where are you taking your business Next, if you will. And so how do you continue to build efficiency and growth and things of that nature, and just where, where do you want to take the business next? And so making sure that we're looking at, I think both sides Alex is super important for us, because we want to make sure that we serve the folks we have at the table. In addition to being a great example for those that are considering the career down the road,

Annie Holcombe  
why don't you talk a little bit about, kind of, on that note, the education for this year, because I think that, you know, I was part of some of the reviews of some of the sections, and one of the things that I loved about some of the focus this year was really about forcing interaction, like making sure that people were not just standing up and presenting For the sake of presenting and doing, you know, a slide deck that everybody was just going to be sitting there staring at. And, you know, having somebody talk to them. They wanted to have something that was interaction. So why don't we tell us a little bit about what the sessions we can expect and what we you know, we think the overall program

Anne Gardner  
is going to look like. I'm glad you mentioned that. So in addition to having workshops that will start on Sunday, the 12th of October. And we have some really interesting new topics there. We also have some deep dives, if you will, some workshop level programming that we have during the actual conference. We also have just some quick hits, if you will, some just small doses, almost micro courses, if you will, for sharing. And so we really wanted to move it away from the panel presentation going on for 45 or 60 Minutes, where you don't have a lot of interaction, because we know that one of our biggest challenges Annie is to make sure that someone can come to this event, that you can either be new or newer in your career, you may be the only one or one of two or three who are representing your company or firm at an event like this. And so how do we bring together a year's worth of knowledge information? How do we extend the trail on that after you've been at the event, and so being able to make sure that we have those deeper dives and those exposure and networking opportunities. Because one of the best things that I know I take from events when I attend them, is who are the people I met, and are they in a similar life transition point, business challenge? And so we wanted to really open up the program so that you have more opportunity to meet one another and dialog and identify people who may be facing a very similar business situation or business challenge, or maybe are exploring the growth opportunity that you're exploring, because we know that the value is in what you take from the actual in person event, and how do you use it year round, right? And even down to the level of introducing the conference recordings, we know it's not novel, you know, but it's just one of those areas where we knew we wanted to personalize the event, give opportunity to meet and have connections, so that you can then take the event with you after, yeah.

Alex Husner  
And, you know, I think a big part of the success of any of the events that we go to is the venue. I mean, the food too, but the venues, it plays a big part in it. And I'm curious to hear, I know we had VMA in fall of 2022, in Vegas, but it's at a different it's the same property, but like a different part of it is, what I've heard is that true,

Anne Gardner  
it's actually a whole new property. So when we were. When we were in 2022 we were in the Caesars Palace proper, the casino hotel there. And so our event actually has grown. It actually wouldn't fit in a single venue property. And so we are, we are hosting this at a beautiful, relatively new facility that is built specifically for events like the RMA. And it is called Caesar's forum, and so it is adjacent to our hotel and a couple of other properties, and it's across the street from the Caesars Palace. But I think you will you both know that when you say you're in Las Vegas and you're across the street, that could be a 30 minute walk over and a few cross signals. But it's really a space that was designed and built just specifically for this level of networking, this level of learning. You know, we have eight concurrent ballrooms. It's really unusual to be able to say you have eight ballrooms right to be able to have your learning as well as your Expo. Yeah, it's really an extraordinary facility and lots of indoor and outdoor space. I remember

Annie Holcombe  
talking to some of the board members when they got back from the site visit, and they were all very excited about the fact that we didn't have a scenario where, like, suppliers were so far away from all the sessions and everything was going to be working more together. And I think that that that just, you know, that spoke to me like, Okay, this is going to be a much better event. So Anne, why don't you tell us a little bit about the keynote speaker that we had this year. Is a pretty big name. I know that I had kind of heard everybody kind of say, Oh, wow. You know, they took notice. So it feels like it was a, it was a change to get somebody that was recognized along multiple kind of genres of speaking. But I, you know, I don't know what the impetus was to get someone of his caliber to come speak with

Anne Gardner  
us. I think I'm glad you took notice. I'm glad other folks have because I think this was, you know, a real, I think, Hallmark moment for us, you know, as vrma has our 40th anniversary, and as we sort of are navigating, if you will, that bridge of hospitality and the fact that we are a preferred mode of travel lodging for an entire generation right now who is coming into their own and into their spending, and folks have options and flexibility in travel preferences. And so to be able to have the opportunity to welcome chip Connolly to the event, really, I think, signifies the the role that vrma has and that vacation rental management, professional management has in the overall sort of lodging and hospitality space. We were fortunate. You know, all good things come through relationships and sometimes referrals. And so we had a great opportunity. One of our planning committee members, Michelle Marquis, had an opportunity to help make an introduction for us. And so we're super glad. We're super excited to have him. And as a matter of fact, in addition to his keynote on disruptive hospitality and just sort of challenging that he's also going to stay with us later in the day, and he actually has a breakout session as well. So we have eight ballrooms concurrent for sessions at this facility, and so he'll be in one of those afterwards as well. So he's going to specifically put that presentation to vacation rental industry. And it's about, how do you cultivate and develop your innovation within our industry? And so we're, we're just real, super glad to have him part of it. Yeah, it's

Annie Holcombe  
exciting. It's exciting that the fervor behind him is, I mean, I think it's, it's good and people are interested. And that's exactly what we wanted, is to have people be excited about coming to keynote. I mean, we know Alex isn't going to get up that early, but I'm going to try

Alex Husner  
that early,

Anne Gardner  
but to that point, you know, it's through the work of our members and our leaders, you know that are really, I think, making the difference. And so you can take that, that opportunity, that introduction, that resulted in our great keynote, get, I think, for this year, and just it's the spirit of what that looks like, and what does engagement really mean, and it's making such a difference for us. And we heard that as far as, I think you'd asked about what's different and what's how are we coming forward and bringing this event, which is our sort of our hallmark event forward. And you know, this year we have 12 tracks, you know, 12 distinct tracks that are pivoting everyone through various business stages that we know based on our research now are the areas that they look to vrma for guidance, and they look to their peer network for guidance. And so a lot of those areas where we knew people had needs and wants as far as training, and how do we make that stick throughout the whole year? So we curated a lot of this content, and we have sort of gone to the well of our industry in that sense. And so we've also learned from our partners in they're also producing events and sort of where they were. Where that litmus is. And so we know it's a fast moving things are changing. And so we've really moved away from what I think people used to think of as a pretty stodgy and historic sort of abstract presentation. Write up a session months before and then wait to find out with a letter, an actual letter, if you were going to be part of the program, and then you were really locked in. And we know that our industry and everything is just so much more dynamic than that, and for us to be responsive, we really have to bring together our folks and just listen and go serve it up.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, I think the one thing that I've seen being part of the committee and then some other committees, is that there's a lot more interaction between the committees than there has been. The committees had been operating in kind of silos. I still think there's a lot of opportunity to have more engagement between them, but I think that there is definitely more sharing of ideas that you know, the fact that the committee for the conference did look at sessions, and there are some people on that committee that are helping with the curation portion of it. It's just it's keeping things exciting and fresh. And I think there's just having a different perspective of how the conference can and should be and could be, and really kind of dreaming about these, these wonderful changes to move us forward. And I'm like, for the first time in a really long time, I'm actually, like, super excited about it, one because I won't be standing at a booth so good from that perspective, but I am really excited. And I think the people that I've talked to after people went to foundations in the spring, and then obviously the exact conference, people are feeling that momentum of the association moving forward in a good direction, and that change is coming, and change is good, and we all agree on it. And so I'm really hopeful that everybody that does attend this year will will feel the energy that has been put in it by not only your team, but like you said, the 50 plus volunteers that have been working on it

Anne Gardner  
absolutely and I know you will have a little bit of a different role at the event this year you've got, I know, an extra day added into your own conference schedule, because we were really pleased to learn that you were just elected to the VR ma Board of Directors starting in October at the event this year. So congratulations on that.

Annie Holcombe  
Yeah, thank you very excited. I you know I was, I have to admit, I was a little little hesitant to do it, but then I figured if I didn't do it, I'd always regret not like going for it. So I appreciate everybody's support and confidence to vote me in, so hopeful that the next two years I can make some impact. And, yeah, help change. Things are exciting.

Anne Gardner  
Alex, can we pivot a question to Annie? I'd love to know, sort of, what you absolutely what do you see Annie as opportunities for us? And you know what, what you see sort of on the near the near term horizon, if you will.

Annie Holcombe  
So it's interesting. So like, specific to the conference, I think that the vendor Hall needs to be completely blown up and redone. I have lots of ideas on that, so, yeah, so I think that that's one that could make a really big change for perception, but also engagement. But I do think, and it's been a lot of conversations that we've had on the membership committee, is that you know, kind of what you were alluding to is, is tapping into the DMO, CVB chambers of commerce, and we, we've known for a long time that that's kind of an opportunity to have kind of boots on the ground evangelists in these markets for us. But one of the things that I know you and I have been working on is to do a survey out to these people to understand, like, what do they know about brma, but what? How does the vacation rental industry impact their market? You know? Because I think we're making a lot of assumptions based on the membership that we have, and certainly they're probably right in some areas, but I think we just there's a lot of markets out there that we don't have any touch points in, and we don't have anybody in the market that can talk about the association and the value that we bring. So I would like to see, you know, us get data from that survey and really be able to make some great changes there to grow membership. And then, you know, to your your other point about, you know, where, kind of the largest bucket of opportunity sits in growth, it's one of the things that I'm now focusing on with my new business, Annie and CO, is that I want to really tap into education for these people that are new to the business since covid, because they don't know what the real world is like outside of, you know, the last couple of years. And so now they're really hitting kind of, we've joked, but, you know, we're going to go back to 2019 and it's not that you want to go back, but that's the last year that anybody has that was sort of would be deemed normal. So there's all these people that entered the space that don't know what normal, can, should, could be. And so I think tapping into those people and getting them, as you know, someone said previously, like the tents big enough for all of them, let's, let's invite them into the tent. And we just haven't been inviting them. And I've been talking to some managers that are smaller. And the amount of information that they don't know and that they have had kind of poor guidance on it has been a detriment to the association, I think, in, you know, from an advocacy standpoint, from a messaging standpoint, so that tapping into the small, the smaller operators, where I really, really see our ability to grow and prosper in the in the industry, that's great.

Anne Gardner  
That's great. All good points, right? Yeah,

Alex Husner  
work to do, yeah? I mean, I think, you know, in associations that I've been a part of, and I served on VMA board for about a year and a half last year and beyond, but, you know, one of the things that we've talked about was similar what Annie mentioned, of like, how do we partner more with these different associations, whether, you know, at a local level, some of the other trade associations, both us and and abroad. And I think so far this year, I've seen and I've seen you at several conferences. You were at VR nation, you were at the vacation rental Women's Summit. I'm sure you've been to some others too. But I think it's really, it's big. It's important for us, us as vrama, to show our support for these other associations too. Because at the end of the day, you know, we serve different audiences. There is, of course, some crossover, but there's always going to be some people that can't make every show, and if they can't make the RMA, but they can make VR nation, maybe next year. It's the it's the opposite, or maybe they go to both. But I mean, there's values, and, you know, differences between the organizations. And I think when we work together, we're stronger. And it's less about seeing, you know, each different entity as competition, but it's about, how do we grow the awareness of the professional industry? How do we get there's how many 1000 vacation rental companies, like 18,000 US somewhere around there. I mean, there's only, you know, our membership is much lower than that. So it's like there's so many more people to reach, and that's, that's how you reach, you know, to Annie's point, it's the local connections, you know, beyond just those trade associations, but the chambers and realtor associations. And, you know, I think that's going to be where the growth comes, and how you figure out how to, how to work that together so that it's a great partnership for both sides.

Anne Gardner  
Absolutely, I will, I will take all those suggestions to the bank on that, absolutely, absolutely, because it is true. There's and I do have some interesting things too, that I can, that I can share with you is that we do know that affiliating with vrma increases your bottom line. You know, we know, we have an annual study that we do with our data, one of our data partners, key data, and so they work with us, sort of behind, behind the scenes, and we look at the last year, and we this year, we looked at the last four years, and, you know, just where we're able to demonstrate and see that those who are part of vrma, you know you are learning, you are creating a community, you are growing. And so you know the results in your business are are 100% there as well. And so we have that evidence, those proof points. And so you have longer booking windows, and you also have larger and you have your paid stays are higher, as well as you have the length of stay is longer. So you have really three really strong points where, by virtue of being part of your community, part of your industry. We know your business is improving, if you will, and you have that opportunity. How are we as an industry protecting the industry, you know, fostering its ability to grow unfettered and to be able to, you know, work within markets and so to your points, Annie, about the smaller operators and that outreach, that's something that we're really putting a lot of focus on right now, and we're being more proactive as an organization. And where are those areas where we know that there's vulnerabilities, or where there's, you know, challenges that could happen, or where it's going to be an area that could be a good case study, if you will. And so we're we're starting to sort of differentiate ourselves in that we're in a position to be able to do this work, and so it's right and appropriate and needed to do these studies in this work. And so that's a key part of what we're doing with our newly relaunched Advocacy Fund. And so we know that our partners in the industry have funds. They're doing fundraising, and they're really specific in their channels, as far as whether it be capacity building and helping to grow the small and regional and statewide organizations. And so we know vrma has a role there. It's a companion role we're all there to lift, because the industry is is still in its early stages, if you will. And so we're evolving just so quickly to where we need many hands and we need many voices in order to represent

Annie Holcombe  
us. Yeah, and I love, I love the the approach of that we can work together side by side in partnership, instead of having this, again, this kind of siloed mentality of like, each, you know, each, these entities have their own discipline. In there, not to, not to come together, to, you know, to partner. And I think that if we, we partner with all of these things, we're just like you said, it's like the rising tide lifts all boats. I mean, we're going to be better as a as an industry, and we know we're, we've got a lot of headwinds related to, to, you know, regulations, right? You know, some markets, it's the hotel lobby, you know, and I think that we need to befriend them. I mean, that's, let's face it, the hotel brands are stepping into this space, so we need to, you know, I don't, someone said to me once, it's like inviting, you know, the wolf in the den. And I was like, you know, they need to be in. They're they're stepping in, whether we want them or

Alex Husner  
not, nothing can be improved by not working with them, right? Get any wars, so, yeah, I think, and we need to have a seat at the table, you know. I mean, if you're not on the table, you're on the menu. And as an industry, we've learned that, you know, in so many cases across the country. So I think the more that we can, you know, try and again, find that mutually beneficial way that it benefits both sides to work together, then that's where the win is well, and we are super excited for vrma 25 and there's no better place to have a conference than Las Vegas. So I think a lot of people are really excited, and just feeling the momentum of the past events that have gone really well this year, and just the opportunity to connect and network and learn. So if anybody wants to get in touch with you or learn more about brma, or potentially attend the show if they haven't already booked, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Anne Gardner  
I'm pretty easy to find. I'm on LinkedIn, and so if you're if you're in channels or whatnot, you you usually can find me here and there. I'm also really accessible to get to. And I encourage everybody to reach out. Tell me your experience story with vrma at a Gardner, a G, A r, d, N, E R at V rma.org, so those are probably the two easiest ways to to hear from me.

Alex Husner  
Awesome. Okay, well, and if anybody wants to get in touch with Annie and I, you can go to Alex and Annie podcast.com and until next time and until Vegas, we'll see you there.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai